What is paranormal in Homeopathy

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Originally posted by Stitch

Homeopathy has made a lot of claims over the past so as Hans has said it would be useful if you could outline what you belive homeopathy can do.

The challenge that Randi usually puts down is "if there is something special about a homepathic preparation, identify a vile of it from a number of viles of "ordinary water" in a double blind test, using whatever means you like"

Dr. MAS: I only claim, we can heal patients (curable or incurable) by grace of Allah (God) and with the help of homeopathic medicines as a source. Other then we claim nothing.

As for as placebo effect, this stage will come after my first claim. First discuss my claim (which I posted in the Hans Reply) Do you agree or not? :k:

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Originally posted by TheBoypaj

Because it has never passed a properly controlled, double blind trial. We normally don't accept things as "pure scientific" without tests.

Dr. MAS: Who told you about DBT is the criteria to verify the system, scientific or unscientific?

if I claim I can reach at moon then you can not ask me to use airplane to go there, I can use any via to land at moon, your concern should be to only verify in your own way, whether I have been landed at moon or not.. Dear, Am I right?

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quote:
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Originally posted by pmckean

I'd like to ask Dr. Mas if he can point us the way of reputable, published, verifiable, unbiased, controlled, double-blind studies which demonstrate the existence of homeopathic effects.

Dr. MAS: Thanks for the encouraging remarks. This is not my headache to prove things in your style, this is your headache to prove what I am saying, I will only do it in my style and you will prove it in your own style. :teacher: ?

Just like, if I claim I can reach at moon then you can not ask me to use airplane to go there, I can use any via to land at moon, your concern should be to only verify in your own way, whether I have been landed at moon or not.. Dear, may I right?

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Dr. MAS said:
quote:

Just like, if I claim I can reach at moon then you can not ask me to use airplane to go there, I can use any via to land at moon, your concern should be to only verify in your own way, whether I have been landed at moon or not.. Dear, may I right?

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First welcome to the forum!

I do not think I agree. If you claim to have been to the moon nobody cares how you got there. What we are interested in is that you show us evidence that you have been to the moon and not to some desert on Earth or anywhere else.

When it comes to curing people with homeopathy what we are intersted in is that you prove to have cured the people using homeopathy and not some other kind of procedure or not cured them at all.
In order to know if people have been cured by the virtue of homeopathy you need to do double blind testing. This is to make sure that your results do not depend on something else than the homeopathic "drug".

If you suggest a test as the one described above with "cured" meaning that 8 of 10 patients would no longer be infected with HIV virues after the treatment, it would certainly show that homeopathy has an effect, if the tests were conducted in a scientific way. Do you claim to be able to cure people infected with HIV?
 
Dr. MAS said:
If you detail us (homeopaths) to treat 10 AIDS / Hepatitis etc confirmed patients and if we succeed in curing 8 out 10 then you might confirm that "Homeopathic medicines have good healing effects / property against human diseases". ;)
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What criteria will you use to determine if the person has been cured or not?
On the first stage, we would like to verify the above statement. if we succeed, then could we come in the row of winning the prize? or your demand is something else :D
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Most posters on this forum do not officially represent the JREF. We are here because we wish to discuss science and the paranormal. To find out whether your claim is eligible for the prize, you should contact the JREF directly.
 
Dr. MAS said:
Dr. MAS: I only claim, we can heal patients (curable or incurable) by grace of Allah (God) and with the help of homeopathic medicines as a source. Other then we claim nothing.

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Welcome here & Good wishes.

I a happy, now.:)

They may ask, what can be the proportion of grace of GOD and of homeopathic remedies, involved in your claim for healing by homeopathic remedies as they think modern system don't cure/traet by grace? ;)
 
Dr. MAS: Thanks for the encouraging remarks. This is not my headache to prove things in your style, this is your headache to prove what I am saying, I will only do it in my style and you will prove it in your own style.

Carlos? Is that you?
 
Dr. MAS said:
Dr. MAS: Thanks for the encouraging remarks. This is not my headache to prove things in your style, this is your headache to prove what I am saying, I will only do it in my style and you will prove it in your own style. :teacher: ?
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Could you please describe your "style" in some detail? If you do give a medicine to a patient and the patient tells you that he/she's feeling better, how do you make sure that what you're observing is not a placebo effect?
 
Vikram said:
Could you please describe your "style" in some detail? If you do give a medicine to a patient and the patient tells you that he/she's feeling better, how do you make sure that what you're observing is not a placebo effect?
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No Vikram, you're doing it all wrong. It's up to you to prove that Dr. Mas is wrong. You have to prove that there is a negative effect from homeopathy. You have to prove that it's all bullcrap. It's not up to him, he's happy to just rake in the bucks.
 
Dr. MAS said:
Dr. MAS: Who told you about DBT is the criteria to verify the system, scientific or unscientific?
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Because I know of no other way to ensure that it is the treatment which is causing an effect, rather than placebo, experimenter bias or good old fashioned cheating.

It's also what real scientists do.
 
Dr. MAS said:

We may start from this point. I claim we can treat an incureable case of any disease entirely with the help of homeopathic medicines.

If you detail us (homeopaths) to treat 10 AIDS / Hepatitis etc confirmed patients and if we succeed in curing 8 out 10 then you might confirm that "Homeopathic medicines have good healing effects / property against human diseases". ;)

On the first stage, we would like to verify the above statement. if we succeed, then could we come in the row of winning the prize? or your demand is something else :D

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I suggest you double blind the test using twice as many test subjects; 50 percent of them on homeopathy and the other half being on anothery placebo.
Make sure and double blind!
 
Oh-oh. What we have here is a troll with a white coat and a 'Dr.' in front of his name.
 
Ceinwyn said:
No Vikram, you're doing it all wrong. It's up to you to prove that Dr. Mas is wrong. You have to prove that there is a negative effect from homeopathy. You have to prove that it's all bullcrap. It's not up to him, he's happy to just rake in the bucks.
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You might be right. Nonetheless, I'm going to go out on a limb and ask him to present his point.
 
quote:
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Originally posted by TheBoyPaj

Because I know of no other way to ensure that it is the treatment which is causing an effect, rather than placebo, experimenter bias or good old fashioned cheating.

It's also what real scientists do.

Dr. MAS: Dear Boy, See above and review, we have started arguing over an “argument” and again fighting over disagreement, if this happens in discussion then we will never reach at a point.

This is already in your mind that a real scientist knows better how it could be tested and when a real scientist (Dr. MAS double Ph.D :D ) is telling you something then you are interested in coming over to that point. :D What is the definition of scientist in your mind? :rolleyes:

I am not a skillful typist neither I cannot transfer my thoughts completely over the papers. This requires time and vigor which we all of us don’t have. I will request to all of you that I am a guest here. You people being the intellectuals help me in finding the answer of my first and basic question “what is paranormal in homeopathy” Still no body taught me. :con2:

I am not coming here to disgrace anyone or impress you. Please do not throw bricks on me. :bricks: Help me in finding the answer. thanks




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quote:
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Originally posted by TheBoyPaj

Oh-oh. What we have here is a troll with a white coat and a 'Dr.' in front of his name.

Dr. MAS: I am not a troll. I have only one alias. This is my record, I never discuss with duplicate alias. I use my real name, true qualification, proper location/address and open email address. I also mention my phone numbers. I use my real pic in avatar, so that if anybody wants to verify, they can verify with double blind test. :D

Could you please set this example before declaring someone a “troll”? I always protected MRC_Hans on different forums. He was the person whose address was blocked many times and many times he was declared “troll”, But I always protected him in the sense that if any body is demanding evidences for proof or saying right then this does not mean that we declare him a “troll”, may be he remembers when he said the same words at another forum. This is not a matter of trolling. :nope


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Dr MAS,

You say you have many degrees at various levels and a PhD, and yet you telling us here that double-blinded placebo-controlled trials are NOT valid testing of anything to do with homeopathy. And that you just want us to take your word for the results simply because you say so. And that the onus is on US to prove you wrong, rather than YOU supporting your own claim.

Can I say that I am highly skeptical of your qualifications right off the bat. If any of these degrees or the PhD have been in any scientific or medical fields at reputable learning establishments in Pakistan (or anywhere for that matter), you will have studied and learned and even used the reliable and proven DPT technique, you would know the basic premises of setting up such a trial, and would know know why it is so reliable.

Which is quite the opposite of what you have started out with here. And that immediately makes me wonder what your real purpose is in being here... Are you REALLY as qualified as you say you are? I'd like some sort of proof of that first up, if you don't mind.

Do you think Allah smiles on frauds?
 
First of all, Paj didn't call you a troll, it was me.

Secondly, I see no difference between your claims and the claims of others who think that Homeopathy works.

You have simply come here spouting your qualifications as if they mean something. You are a founder member of the 'Pakistan Homeopathic Society' so what? It has absolutely no sway in real science. If I started an organisation called the 'UK Spinach for the Cure of Cancer Society' would I be any more qualified than you? No, of course not.

Creating, joining or being affiliated with an organisation that has no clinical merit means nothing.

It doesn't matter what you look like, who you are or what your phone number is, I don't care, I'm not here to discredit you, I'm here to discredit your beliefs.

I used the term troll because I didn't see any difference between you and someone else who simply enters a forum to cause trouble. Now I know you are not a troll, I'll take it back until a point where it can be proven.

You ask a question "what is paranormal in homeopathy". I dunno, what is it? As far as I am concerned it's just two words put together to apparently mean something. To some it does mean something and they are willing to pay people like you to administer what is, to all intents and purposes nothing.

You give people water that will apparently cure them of cancer.

It has been tested and proven to not work. Therefore you are profiting on people's ill health by providing nothing.

If you are so certain of your claims, rather than us all skirt around the issue, just apply for the prize. Until the point that Homeopathy is proven, you are in the 'woo' fringe, plain and simple.
 
Zep and Andy

I will never reply you in the same tone.

Come to the point!

"What is paranormal in homeopathy"? So that we could go further?;)

Smile :)
 
Dr. MAS said:
Zep and Andy

I will never reply you in the same tone.

Come to the point!

"What is paranormal in homeopathy"? So that we could go further?;)

Smile :)
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I answered you:

As far as I am concerned it's just two words put together to apparently mean something. To some it does mean something and they are willing to pay people like you to administer what is, to all intents and purposes nothing.
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It doesn't exist. Will that do for an answer?
 
quote:
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Originally posted by pmckean

I'd like to ask Dr. Mas if he can point us the way of reputable, published, verifiable, unbiased, controlled, double-blind studies which demonstrate the existence of homeopathic effects.

Dr. MAS: This depends upon the proof which you want to confirm. So for homeopaths claimed that their homeopathic medicines have healing effect / power against fatal diseases. If you say “No”, then a protocol can be defined to prove that but first cover over to that point, either we cannot prove anything. :brk:

You see, all you have different demands to prove, one is saying prove the potency other is saying what is cure and few are not interested in homeo healing effect. First you people decide what do you want from us to confirm? :rr:


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