What is paranormal in Homeopathy
- Thread starter Dr. MAS
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- homeopathy
Rolfe
Adult human female
(1ml's a pretty big drop actually....)
Rolfe,
Rolfe,
Zep said:
How many molecules of active remedy substance can stick/penetrate to glass average size bottle on first to 12C potencies OR to any standard mortar & pestle from 1X to 24X potencies? How much molecules can remain present in each potency, along with this consideration?
Please note that there is no such thing as pure ethanol, (the stuff that is pure enough to drink is at least 5% water. If you expose rigorously dried ethanol or methanol to air you can actually see the solvent expanding in volume as the alcohol "drinks" up atmosperic moisture. Alcohol (at least the C1 and C2 varieties is very thirsty stuff. Given the low molar mass of water, water contamination of alcohol is very significant.
Mojo
Mostly harmless
(a) It won't make any difference as far as homeopathy is concerned, because the molecules that have stuck to things won't have been potentized to the same degree as the molecules from the mother tincture.Kumar said:How many molecules of active remedy substance can stick/penetrate to glass average size bottle on first to 12C potencies OR to any standard mortar & pestle from 1X to 24X potencies? How much molecules can remain present in each potency, along with this consideration?
(b) Why don't you clean the damn thing?
Rolfe
Adult human female
This is pathetic, Kumar. Immunologists do this serial dilution stuff all the time, and we even do it in the biochem lab occasionally. Every day in my lab, my staff are diluting 1:1, 1:2, 1:4, 1:8, 1:16, 1:32, 1:64, 1:128; 1:256, 1:512, 1:1024, 1:2048, 1:4096, 1:8192... Measurements are carried out on each dilution, and these confirm absolutely that the amount of solute decreases by 50% every time, exactly as predicted.
We used to use glassware all the time, because that is particularly good at having stuff not stick to it (look up the difference between a glass and a gel some time). However, we find we can actually use suitable plastics most of the time, which is a lot cheaper, and still have no effect of anything sticking to anything.
Now, explain to me how you think it might be possible that something radically different happens just because the dilution steps are 1:10 or 1:100 rather than 1:2. And how come nobody in an immunology lab has ever noticed this. Especially since these higher dilution factors are occasionally used in immunology, when dealing with very high-titre samples.
If there was the slightest sense to anything you're saying, none of the ordinary laboratory tests used in all the hospitals in the entire world would work.
Funnily enough, they do work.
Rolfe.
We used to use glassware all the time, because that is particularly good at having stuff not stick to it (look up the difference between a glass and a gel some time). However, we find we can actually use suitable plastics most of the time, which is a lot cheaper, and still have no effect of anything sticking to anything.
Now, explain to me how you think it might be possible that something radically different happens just because the dilution steps are 1:10 or 1:100 rather than 1:2. And how come nobody in an immunology lab has ever noticed this. Especially since these higher dilution factors are occasionally used in immunology, when dealing with very high-titre samples.
If there was the slightest sense to anything you're saying, none of the ordinary laboratory tests used in all the hospitals in the entire world would work.
Funnily enough, they do work.
Rolfe.
Still no reply from a homeopath about their own potency-creating process...
Come on, then! I need a homeopath who is willing to walk us through their own dilution process using real numbers, to prove to us Dr MAS's "probability law" idea that molecules of mother tincture can remain in high potency remedies.
Perhaps Dr MAS might like to be the opening batsman for his own idea? No?
Come on, then! I need a homeopath who is willing to walk us through their own dilution process using real numbers, to prove to us Dr MAS's "probability law" idea that molecules of mother tincture can remain in high potency remedies.
Perhaps Dr MAS might like to be the opening batsman for his own idea? No?
Mojo said:
Potentisation may also mean individuality/sepration of molecules.
Rolfe,
There can be some micropores in glass, which may hold some molecules. Shaking/triturating may be doing something. You may be washing bottles in lab by some chemicals instead of water. You may be checking sunstances having bigger molecules which may not penetrate in microporesof glass. Silica in glass may be somewhat related to absorbing/sticking some molecules strongly.
What is the porosity of plain glass?
Don't you know it?
It is there but I want to know porosity of glass of bottles?
Hi Zeb,
My question is still unanswered.
When a single drop from 1st potency (which was prepared according to the ratio 1/99) was taken into 2nd bottle for preparing 2nd dilution, can you confirm that the exact ratio of "starting material" in the drop was transfered in 2nd diltution?
Remember, 1st potency was prepared with the ratio 1/99 i.e one drop of starting material was taken and 99 drops of fresh pure any solvent (alcohol) was added and then it was jerked 10 times. The "lonly" drop of 1st starting material was got mixed and now you have to take one drop from the previous potency as "new starting material" for preparing 2nd potency. Clear?
Can you confirm that this new drop which was taken as new starting material contains 1/99 ratio of 1st starting material (Refer to probablity law)?
Remember, according to probality law, it is quite possible that the 2nd starting material "drop" may not contain any molecule of 1st starting material (because that drop was picked up blindly from the 1st bottle) and it may or may not contain 50% of the 1st starting material or may contain 99% of the starting material. Hence, avogadro's law can be applied in the same manner as it was demonstrated by you (member) earlier.
Have you follewed my new clear and robust wording. I can't explain in more simple way.
What is your claim?
Could you specifiy whether you are talking about a substance which is soluble in the solvent , such as NaCl in water? If you are talking about both soluble and insoluble materials, could you talk about them separately to make things clearer?Dr. MAS said:
Dr. MAS said:
Since you haven't answered flume I will assume the substance is completely soluble in the solvent. In that case I belive that yes, that ratio of starting material will be transfered. If not exactly each and every time, for all practical purposes it will be close enough (which is what Rolfe already said anyway)
And before you start bickering about probability laws, I doubt that it is applicable here. Probability theory is about chance only situations where any configuration is as likely as the next. In this case, having the solute gathering up in one corner is not possible under the premises and I guess someone somewhere already described how the solute distributes in the solvent mathematically. Without shaking, Gaussian maybe?
Homeopath Syed
New Blood
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2005
- Messages
- 22
Beware
Hans..!
I was on weekend ...!
-----------------------------
"Anybody who takes Anacardium-200 TDS for 10 days will show the following symptoms:
Forgetful
Pustulation upon skin
Severe colic empty stomach"
Right, Syed, is that your claim? Sure you don't wanna put in some probabilities, or something??
-----------------------------
Oh yes.... No propbabilities at all...! I never counted on probabilities either ...
Prepare the globules of Ananc-200, Take 2 or 3 globules TDS for 10 days. Avoid any antidoting agent like Vicks, Camphor etc.
is the only thing required for it.
and the user goes for a trial... of his life.
Verified it in two cases and both responded with quite similar set of symptoms.
1- Severe Skin Rash nearly all over the body.
2- No anti-allergic (Allopathic Remedies) provoded relief t patient.
3- No creams were better for good.
Unless we anti-doted it as per our own homeopathic phiosophy that the rash started to reduce and cleared away in 21 days.
------------------------------
Although you may choose to use China-200 TDS daily fo 10days. and feel how a malarial patient feels. The chills may comenct by the end of 5th or 6th day.. and by the 9th you ll get the fever,.
------------------------------
Note:- My extreme interest in knowing the mechanics of homopathic agravations have taught me better about it.
------------------------------
Surprize to see Hans advocating the lessers
All Yours
Hans..!
I was on weekend ...!
-----------------------------
"Anybody who takes Anacardium-200 TDS for 10 days will show the following symptoms:
Forgetful
Pustulation upon skin
Severe colic empty stomach"
Right, Syed, is that your claim? Sure you don't wanna put in some probabilities, or something??
-----------------------------
Oh yes.... No propbabilities at all...! I never counted on probabilities either ...
Prepare the globules of Ananc-200, Take 2 or 3 globules TDS for 10 days. Avoid any antidoting agent like Vicks, Camphor etc.
is the only thing required for it.
and the user goes for a trial... of his life.
Verified it in two cases and both responded with quite similar set of symptoms.
1- Severe Skin Rash nearly all over the body.
2- No anti-allergic (Allopathic Remedies) provoded relief t patient.
3- No creams were better for good.
Unless we anti-doted it as per our own homeopathic phiosophy that the rash started to reduce and cleared away in 21 days.
------------------------------
Although you may choose to use China-200 TDS daily fo 10days. and feel how a malarial patient feels. The chills may comenct by the end of 5th or 6th day.. and by the 9th you ll get the fever,.
------------------------------
Note:- My extreme interest in knowing the mechanics of homopathic agravations have taught me better about it.
------------------------------
Surprize to see Hans advocating the lessers
All Yours
Kumar said:All homeopathic remedies considered as soluble from ist poency. Trituration upto 3X of non soluble substance, is somewhat considered, it makes those soluble.
I doubt anyone cares if you "consider" it soluble. Either it IS, or it is NOT soluble. It's not a matter of personal preference you know.
Badly Shaved Monkey
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
- Messages
- 5,363
Dr. MAS said:
You need to answer the questions I have already posted to see why you are wrong in principle. You need to read Rolfe's comments about routine lab practice to se that you are wrong in reality.
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2002
- Messages
- 24,967
Re: Beware
----- Wait. Did you say 2 (two)? You are basing this unconditional claim on two observations??
I'm afraid that doesn't quite pass the criteria for scientific testing. Even without observer bias, or the possibility that you both contracted the same infection, from the same source, the probability that your observation is due to pure chance is 25%.
Before we go on, I suggest you do the following: Prepare 6 vials of remedy. Prepare another 6 vials of blank pills. Make sure they all look alike. Now, have you friend do the following:
Take 8 of the bottles vials, numbering and labelling them consecutively, 1-8, using this procedure:
- Flip a coin. If heads, take a vial with remedy, if tails, take one with blank pills.
- Label it with number.
- Note on a list, the number of the vial and a 'V' if remedy (verum), or a 'P' if blank 8placebo).
When 8 bottles are prepared, your friend packs them and sends them to you. He/she also puts the abovementiond list in an envelope, seals it, and puts it in a safe place.
Now, at your leisure, you pick one vial at the time, the order is unimportant. Take the pills, and, based on your observations, decide if it is verum or placebo. Fill in a list with the numbers, and 'V' or 'P', as appropriate.
When you have tested all 8 vials, have your friend open the sealed envelope and compare the results.
Obviously, this is not a real scientific test. The odds against getting a 8 of 8 correct score are not that high (1/64), and you might cheat (but the only one you will cheat will be yourself).
Still, it might give you an idea of what you are working with.
Good luck!
Hans
Good Syed! You are now on your way to the Randi million. I suggest you hurry up and submit an application before anybody else does.Homeopath Syed said:
----- Wait. Did you say 2 (two)? You are basing this unconditional claim on two observations??
I'm afraid that doesn't quite pass the criteria for scientific testing. Even without observer bias, or the possibility that you both contracted the same infection, from the same source, the probability that your observation is due to pure chance is 25%.
Before we go on, I suggest you do the following: Prepare 6 vials of remedy. Prepare another 6 vials of blank pills. Make sure they all look alike. Now, have you friend do the following:
Take 8 of the bottles vials, numbering and labelling them consecutively, 1-8, using this procedure:
- Flip a coin. If heads, take a vial with remedy, if tails, take one with blank pills.
- Label it with number.
- Note on a list, the number of the vial and a 'V' if remedy (verum), or a 'P' if blank 8placebo).
When 8 bottles are prepared, your friend packs them and sends them to you. He/she also puts the abovementiond list in an envelope, seals it, and puts it in a safe place.
Now, at your leisure, you pick one vial at the time, the order is unimportant. Take the pills, and, based on your observations, decide if it is verum or placebo. Fill in a list with the numbers, and 'V' or 'P', as appropriate.
When you have tested all 8 vials, have your friend open the sealed envelope and compare the results.
Obviously, this is not a real scientific test. The odds against getting a 8 of 8 correct score are not that high (1/64), and you might cheat (but the only one you will cheat will be yourself
).Still, it might give you an idea of what you are working with.
Good luck!
Hans