What is paranormal in Homeopathy

[Kumar]

Homeopathic science/secret/trick/working

Future/Others theories may not be needed in view of my posting in other thread...see other thread "One Million Rupees Offer to prove "Homeopathy is Paranormal". for secret/trick/science.

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Beware...!

What am I supposed to beware of? You? Don't make me laugh!

It has been sometime that I read all the useless discussions among you people regarding homeopathy. Initially it looked intelligent as a specific test was asked....
"How can we differ between two homeopathic preparations..." Ofcourse I know answer...! but no use telling you..!

Typical homoeopath. Knows how to do the apparently impossible, but won't tell us. Not even for a million dollars, it seems.

You cant tell the difference between any two vaccinies if prepared in identical career. Can you ?

If you're asking, could I personally tell, I would need a bit of notice of that question. However, if you're saying, is it possible, of course it is!!! If you gave a vaccine manufacturer the bottles, absolutely definitely it would be possible to tell. Exactly which tests you had to use would depend on the particular vaccines. If you offered all the scientists in the world a million dollars if they were able to tell them apart, you'd be kissing goodbye to your money in a very short time indeed.

Know something about "Epinephrine" ? or not.

Just a little (though we call it "adrenaline" around here). An entire chapter of my PhD thesis was devoted to studying its effects on horses, including detailed explanation of its effects at a cellular and molecular level.

Know somthing about the "Sensitivity of Biological Assay of human beings" ?

Maybe something. Possibly. And your point is?

We will talk later......

Perhaps. I certainly won't be going away.

Rolfe.

 

[flume]

It is interesting that Dr. MAS's students are also reading these posts. I hope they will give thought to the posts which talk about molecules and dilutions.

geni posted a quote that was a summary of Dr. MAS describing his arguments here to his group (or club) in Pakistan. I hope the students reading these posts can see that he presented his arguments in more detail to his group than he has given here.

(Those students could also post here if they joined the forum - I think they would need email addresses to join.)

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Re: Beware...!

Initially it looked intelligent as a specific test was asked....
"How can we differ between two homeopathic preparations..."

No the question was if you could tell the difference between a high potency homeopathic remedy and the stock solvent.

Be fair, Geni, I did also ask about telling two different homoeopathic preparations apart. Let's face it, being able to tell the difference between 30C arnica and 30C belladonna (just to take random examples) would be if anything even more impressive than distinguishing the remedy from the stock solvent/sugar pills. I may be going out on a limb here, but I reckon if Syed told the JREF that he could do that, they'd allow it for the prize.

Rolfe.

 

[Patricio Elicer]

I again request you if any body is interested in understanding the scientific method, he or she should come and reveal his/her academic background so that I could teach him according to his/her educational status. I do not find anything wrong in this condition.

Rolfe has the right academic background, and so do others. I'm afraid that if you continue with your evasions and excuses, it is she who will end up teaching you. Or has she already have?

 

[Homeopath Syed]

Beware

Good....!

The said harmone can be detected by Biological Assay of a human being in dilution of 300,000,000/- and a response gained.
(Harvard University).


Rolfe
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
No the question was if you could tell the difference between a high potency homeopathic remedy and the stock solvent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
STUPID CHALLENGE

No...because the lab test that can detect the solute after 6 digits past decimal does not exist.....You cant do it either my friend.

However, such solutions do exist where the dilution is o.ooooo1% or even more lean.
Do you disagree?

But the Biological Assay responds to even higher dilutions...! as in vaccines and harmones!
Do you disagree?

 

[Ashles]

Re: Beware

Rolfe
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
No the question was if you could tell the difference between a high potency homeopathic remedy and the stock solvent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

No...because the lab test that can detect the solute after 6 digits past decimal does not exist.....You cant do it either my friend.

Hmm, unexpected.
So you are admtting that homeopathic remedies are indistinguishable from their stock solvent then? Well at last, a homeopath we can agree with.

You see Syed, other homeopaths are under the strange delusion that the homeopathic remedy will cure people of diseases, and the pure stock solvent won't, and that they could be distinguished that way.

But if you are saying that they can't then we are all in full agreement. Which is nice.

 

[Homeopath Syed]

Beware

-------------------------------------------------

I need answer to my two more more qusetions pls.... I repeat for your ease...below!

However, such solutions do exist where the dilution is o.ooooo1% or even more lean.
Do you disagree?

But the Biological Assay responds to even higher dilutions...! as in vaccines and harmones!
Do you disagree?
----------------------------------------------

 

[drkitten]

Re: Beware

No...because the lab test that can detect the solute after 6 digits past decimal does not exist.....You cant do it either my friend.

(Rolfe, would you like to tell her about distillation, or shall I?)

Tests that can detect the solute after six digits past decimal are routine, Syed. Just as an example, the state of California allows percholorate contamination in water of 4 "parts per billion," and fines municipalities that can't make that standard. The US EPA permits endrin contamination at 200 "parts per trillion," and can detect violations at that level. The state of Hawai'i allows DBCP (1,2-dibromo-3-chloropropane) at 40 parts per trillion, and dioxin (which is of course one of the more highly regulated, and therefore searched for, chemicals) can be routinely detected at levels of less than two parts per trillion.

But in some sense, this is silly. The whole point of homeopathy is that homeopathic solutions have some kind of physiological/healing effect, which is why they're supposed to be used in treatments. The whole point of homeopathic treatments is that they're supposed to make patients better -- and make them "more better" than if they just drank the stock solution.

So an easy lab test that anyone could do if homeopathy worked, would be to give the homeopathic solution to one group of patients, and give the stock solvent to another. You could tell the solutions apart by which group got better.

If you're really claiming that there is no way even for you to tell a homeopathic solution from the solvent, then you're claiming that homeopathy doesn't work.

Are you sure that's what you want to say?

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Re: Beware

(Rolfe, would you like to tell her about distillation, or shall I?)

Tests that can detect the solute after six digits past decimal are routine, Syed. Just as an example, the state of California allows percholorate contamination in water of 4 "parts per billion," and fines municipalities that can't make that standard. The US EPA permits endrin contamination at 200 "parts per trillion," and can detect violations at that level. The state of Hawai'i allows DBCP (1,2-dibromo-3-chloropropane) at 40 parts per trillion, and dioxin (which is of course one of the more highly regulated, and therefore searched for, chemicals) can be routinely detected at levels of less than two parts per trillion.

I was just explaining to Kumar in the other thread about hormone assays that can detect stuff at the femtomolar level. That is 10<SUP> -2</SUP> molar. (Sorry, don't do gravimetric much around here.)

Syed seems strangely ignorant about modern analytical techniques.

Actually, nobody ever specified that the method used has to be measuring instruments. Biological assay using experimental animals is allowed (and remember that homoeopathy is supposed to "work" on animals - pardon me while I vomit), and tests on human volunteers is also allowed. So, if it is a restriction that the concentrations are too small to be found in vitro and can only be appreciated in vivo, no problem, just design a suitable in vivo trial.

Rolfe.

 

[Homeopath Syed]

Beware

Beautiful..

Check it out again ...there is no lab that can claim to identify a solute upon past 6th digit after decimal.


I still need answer to my remaining two questions....

-------------------
However, such solutions do exist where the dilution is o.ooooo1% or even more lean.
Do you disagree?

But the Biological Assay responds to even higher dilutions...! as in vaccines and harmones!
Do you disagree?
------------------

Different chemicals have different level of strenght for the detection ... you need reactive agents ... If there is not a good reactive agent for a particular chemical... you cant detect it even at 5 th past decimal...
----------------
The last is the electromagnetic variations...that too are yet not fine tuned to the level beyond 6 digits after decimal.

------
No use going further if you are not qualified to give proper answer becasue we would be soon in quantum mechanincs

 

[geni]

Re: Beware

STUPID CHALLENGE

No...because the lab test that can detect the solute after 6 digits past decimal does not exist.....You cant do it either my friend.

I personaly have detected stuff down to level of 10^-14M. If you radio lable the stuff you can go a lot further. To all intents and perposes you can under the right conditions detect single atoms.

 

[geni]

Re: Beware

Beautiful..

Check it out again ...there is no lab that can claim to identify a solute upon past 6th digit after decimal.

Yes there is. My university for example. The analytical department keeps talking about PPB

I still need answer to my remaining two questions....

-------------------
However, such solutions do exist where the dilution is o.ooooo1% or even more lean.
Do you disagree?

No

But the Biological Assay responds to even higher dilutions...! as in vaccines and harmones!
Do you disagree?
------------------ [/B]

What youi have typed above makes no sense.

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Re: Beware

What youi have typed above makes no sense.

Well, exactly. And anyway, just where did anyone say that biological assays, either in vitro or in vivo were excluded from use in the Challenge?

Rolfe.

 

[Homeopath Syed]

Beware

You say we can use a human being for the test ???

 

[geni]

Re: Beware

You say we can use a human being for the test ???

Nothing in the rules that says you can't as long as what you are doing is ethical.

 

[Homeopath Syed]

Beware

You just made it far easier for me ...

Lay down the rules...

 

[geni]

Re: Beware

You just made it far easier for me ...

Lay down the rules...

http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

 

[Homeopath Syed]

Beware

About the human being as the test bench....my dear

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Beware

Check it out again ...there is no lab that can claim to identify a solute upon past 6th digit after decimal.

Where do you get such silly ideas? My job title is "Director of Science and Laboratories". What I do for a living is detect stuff way beyond that sort of concentration every day.

However, such solutions do exist where the dilution is o.ooooo1% or even more lean.
Do you disagree?

Well like I just said, I analyse such solutions accurately every day, routinely. So you're not saying anything at all exciting there.

But the Biological Assay responds to even higher dilutions...! as in vaccines and harmones!
Do you disagree?

Funny you should mention that, because I guess I use what might be described as biological assays. Not animals though, just biological molecules (antibodies) that can detect tiny amounts of substance to great accuracy. In a test-tube.

Different chemicals have different level of strenght for the detection ... you need reactive agents ... If there is not a good reactive agent for a particular chemical... you cant detect it even at 5 th past decimal...

Ah, good enough reagent. Did I mention antibodies? Specific antibodies? Know anything about ELISA? Radioimmunoassay? Chemiluminescence? And these are very standard tests used in every hospital all over the world. Yes, including India and Pakistan. In fact, some are so simple they are even produced as little kits for doctors' surgeries. Crikey, if we're talking about such honking great concentrations as 0.00001 molar (10 micromolar), I think the home pregnancy kits probably fall into that category.

The last is the electromagnetic variations...that too are yet not fine tuned to the level beyond 6 digits after decimal.

Pure nonsense.

No use going further if you are not qualified to give proper answer becasue we would be soon in quantum mechanincs

Ah, you intend to rely on quantum theory? Well, that was quick. I believe we've been there before too and can produce some credible experts to debate with you.

I just hope you've got the maths.

Rolfe.