We left our church

[Ruby]

This is just the tip of the iceberg. The entire story (it would take about an hour to tell it from beginning to end) is filled with nuttiness. As for the question of whether baptism by sprinkling was legitimate, all of the elders except one believed that the Bible firmly settled the matter. The answer was "no," case closed, end of discussion.

The dissenting elder's position was: "I agree with you that baptism by immersion is the correct procedure, but I don't think that the Bible settles the question definitively." This "disagreement" enraged the other elders, who took a secret vote among themselves and decided to kick this dissenting elder out of the church. When some members of the congregation questioned the elders' action, these members were also threatened with being kicked out.

Hollywood would never make a movie with a plot this unbelievable.

It would make for quite an interesting movie if they did.

As for a hierarchical church: A hierarchical church is a church that has a hierarchy of authority, with superintendents, bishops, popes, etc. having the responsibility to oversee and correct the member churches and their pastors. Not all churches are hierarchical.

Right. There are pros and cons with either way you go...whether a church with a hierarchy or one without.

 

[Trish]

Thanks! My sole reason for being in church was for the social aspect....and because my little girl loved Sunday school. I expect to never hear from most of my friends again....

Ruby,

Children adjust. My daughter is 13 and sulking right now because we moved at the end of the school year. She'll make friends and adjust to her new situation. As for your friends, find new friends if necessary. Those who care for you as you are, not as they perceive you to be.

When I walked away from church, I esentially walked away from everyone I knew. The friends I've made since, have been a great help to me in the past few years. Even to allowing me to move in with them when things became unbearable where I was. Esentially, I ran, and haven't looked back.

The stress of trying to stay somewhere for your child would eventually become so weighty that you'd be affected and in turn so would your daughter. I allowed my daughter to live with my brother and his wife when my father was diagnosed with cancer in 2001 and I moved in with my mother to help her care for my father in the home. I thought, at the time, that the offer for my daughter was the best thing for her. I'd been laid off a year and a half earlier and had lost my health insurance. She would finally have insurance again, and better than I'd had before, her school system would be better than the areas I could afford to live in. Things seemed wonderful. Then last year my brother decided to tell me that I allowed her dress like an 18 yo whore, threaten me, kicked my daughter out of their home, and a whole other slew of things.

I allowed her to go to church with my mother, she'd lived with my parents until she was 5. In part because I was in the Marines and then until I had a stable home for her and finished school. Shortly after my father died, my daughter decided to stop going to church. My mother threatened my daughter with kicking her out of the house if she didn't go to church with her. My kid is strong willed and still refuses to speak with her grandmother over this issue.

This is just in the last 10 months that this occured. Things do get better. Your daughter will make new friends, it's important that she be allowed to visit those friends that are still allowed to see her, despite your situation with your church. Also, take her where there are other children her age, from all walks of life, she's more likely to have a more rounded appreciation for people if she's encouraged to make friends with people of different backgrounds, rather than a few that are being raised with similiar ideaologies.

For example, my daughters best friend is jewish. She attended temple with her for her Bat Mitsvah (sp?). It was an experience that she would not otherwise have appreciated if she were only surrounded by those who shared her faith/lack of faith. She thoroughly enjoyed the experience, though it doesn't affect her personal view on god. Her friends are accepting of her atheism/agnosticism. She has better friends I think because they do accept her for her differences rather than her similarities.

 

[Crossbow]

Re: Re: Re: We left our church

This sounds like a statement that my hubby made. He says that my Pastor is coming out with all this stuff because he knows his time is short!!

Not to be picky, but what I am saying is that your pastor sounds quite ill and that he does not know it (due to his depleted condition).

 

[justsaygnosis]

It's dumbfounding how ministers become this arrogant.
Whatever happened to
"the one who would be greatest shall act as the least?"
If a minister is properly oriented they should be ministering so as to make the necessity of their function obsolete.
This behavior is no different than a teacher teaching so as to enslave his pupils to his disciplines rather than to facilitate their growth and expansion.
When one has little to offer it's best to maintain the nothingness of their doctrine veiled in mystery and fear.
You and your husband will be fine; social beings always manage to gather a community.

 

[Finella]

Ruby,

My heart is aching for you -- I am saddened to hear of this happening to your church, since you have often spoken of it so fondly. I am also saddened to hear of this happening to you and your husband -- whatever caused this pastor to suddenly turn on you both, it's definitely hurtful to be betrayed like that.

What I find disheartening here in these responses to your situation is the number of appeals to you to give up your faith simply because you are questioning and facing this terrible circumstance. I find this in poor taste, really. Yet at the same time I am compelled to assure you that there are really wonderful churches out there who share your beliefs and can help you grow as an individual. Christians have always questioned and wandered and grown in their faith for ages.

So maybe that makes my post in poor taste, too, but I do want to give you another view - just my view.

It's too soon to think of new churches, I agree. I think your idea of meeting with your friends who have also left the church for support is wise. I wish you all the best -- do keep us posted.


(I just had to use that emoticon -- hope you don't mind!!)

----,---'--{@

 

[thaiboxerken]

I expect he did talk to God, I just don't know if what he heard in reply was really from God.

Is it because you don't agree with the advice? I mean, is it possible for God to tell someone to do something that is against your own morality?

 

[AmateurScientist]

What I find disheartening here in these responses to your situation is the number of appeals to you to give up your faith simply because you are questioning and facing this terrible circumstance. I find this in poor taste, really. Yet at the same time I am compelled to assure you that there are really wonderful churches out there who share your beliefs and can help you grow as an individual. Christians have always questioned and wandered and grown in their faith for ages.

So maybe that makes my post in poor taste, too, but I do want to give you another view - just my view.

That's not really fair, is it--calling suggestions that perhaps she is awakening to the hypocrisy and downright hatred found in her church to be in poor taste?

Personally, I am happy that Ruby has this opportunity to question her faith and her reasons for it. It is horrible that it had to hurt her and her husband in the way it did. She is independent and perfectly capable of deciding for herself what is best for her. She deserves more credit than you appear to want to give her.

Your remark about Christians wandering and growing their faith even stronger is perhaps even more opportunistic than any free thinker suggesting that she might want to take stock.

You seem to be taking the opportunity to give Ruby a gentle nudge back into the flock of happy sheep. It sounds something like a cult member trying to keep another from escaping.

I don't see Ruby as a sheep at all. I have confidence she and her husband will find their own path to take.

I see nothing distasteful about encouraging others to seek truth and to discard superstition and bigotry.

AS

 

[evildave]

If your sundays don't seem complete without chuch, there are lots of other churches, Ruby.

I have no idea what to recommend, other than to just visit a few over the comming weeks, and decide which one you like best.

A few of them are bound to be run by good people who aren't having a psychotic episode.

 

[Zep]

Hi Ruby,

You're a nice person, right? Your hubby sounds like a good guy who works hard, and the kids are the usual mixture of parental frustration and pride? You like helping other people, laughing, enjoying life? Welcome to the real world!

As I understand it, this is the third such "church" you have left, each time because of disagreements between yourself and it. Can I suggest that perhaps "church" as a concept is just not for you and your family? You just didn't seem to be happy there, did you.

So perhaps, instead of wasting your Sundays being cooped up listening to a self-important tunnel-vision nincompoop drone on about the limitations they want to impose on you, can I suggest you spread your wings literally and figuratively and become fascinated with something else that would be much more productive and fulfilling for yourself, your family, your friends and your community. Make yourself happy and you can make others happy too.

Go for it!

Zep

 

[Boo]

Ruby,

Just wanted to chime in with my sympathies and understanding of your situation. I, too, have had to leave churches. I finally stopped going altogether when my last church told me I couldn't wear pants to service as it was unseemly for a woman to do so. The fact that I was on call for the Ambulance service on those days didn't matter.

My daughter has started going to various churches with her friends from school. They give her rides, she gets the socialization, and a chance to experience different faiths. She is only 13 and has awhile to go and much to learn before she makes up her mind.

All the best and may the God of your faith bless and keep you.



Boo

 

[thaiboxerken]

Leaving the church is only the first step. Now you can start to leave the conditioning of the church. Your first steps on the path to atheism will be rough, but the reward will be freedom.

 

[Tricky]

I finally stopped going altogether when my last church told me I couldn't wear pants to service as it was unseemly for a woman to do so. The fact that I was on call for the Ambulance service on those days didn't matter.

Your church's dress code was more important than saving lives? Boy, that was a church with some seriously screwed up priorities.

 

[evildave]

Naw! They were saving souls!

That's, like, way more important than mere lives. Souls are condemned FOREVER for not wearing appropriate attire to church.

Lives end, and their souls go to heaven anyway (unless they didn't dress nice in church, then they burn eternally in some nasty pit for their disrespect to the clergy, er, god).

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Ruby,

I usually only post to rag the trolls (oh no, I've become what I hate), but I thought I should lend my support. You're strong willed and intelligent, you don't need the Man, either Upstairs or in the pulpit, telling you what to do or how to spend your money.

Phil

 

[Finella]

That's not really fair, is it--calling suggestions that perhaps she is awakening to the hypocrisy and downright hatred found in her church to be in poor taste?

No, I'm calling the appeals to give up something she does not yet know she wants to give up to be in poor taste. I agree, people have the right to decide what they want to do and how to live their lives, and I am certainly not trying to take away any of Ruby's indepedence in this matter.

The reason why I did post was because it seemed that those who were calling for Ruby to give up her faith did so assuming that all churches are like the one she is leaving. They are not. As I keep reiterating, there are denominations of Christianity that are not legalistic, where individuals can question and can doubt and still be part of a faith community -- elements Ruby has identified as being important to her in her faith journey.

As I said, my post was only to give another view.

Your remark about Christians wandering and growing their faith even stronger is perhaps even more opportunistic than any free thinker suggesting that she might want to take stock.

You seem to be taking the opportunity to give Ruby a gentle nudge back into the flock of happy sheep. It sounds something like a cult member trying to keep another from escaping.

I suppose you don't know me very well, otherwise you would not have made such assertions. If you read any of my posts here, you will see I am hardly a "happy sheep" kinda Christian. Not all Christians have been encouraged to doubt and grow; the fact that they do has often been seen as some kind of failure of faith. I was encouraged to doubt and to learn more about whether I needed faith. I still have my faith, and I still have a long life (hopefully) in front of me. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I know that, if any doubting Christian chose, there are churches out there that will encourage a person to seek, will not pressure or scare or intimidate, and will not mind if a person decides to leave because s/he is still unsure.

I don't see Ruby as a sheep at all. I have confidence she and her husband will find their own path to take.

Absolutely.

I see nothing distasteful about encouraging others to seek truth and to discard superstition and bigotry.

I do see something distasteful in encouraging someone who is in a vulnerable state to change her entire worldview which she has stated she is not quite ready to leave behind.

---,---'--{@

 

[Ruby]

It's dumbfounding how ministers become this arrogant.
Whatever happened to
"the one who would be greatest shall act as the least?"
If a minister is properly oriented they should be ministering so as to make the necessity of their function obsolete.
This behavior is no different than a teacher teaching so as to enslave his pupils to his disciplines rather than to facilitate their growth and expansion.
When one has little to offer it's best to maintain the nothingness of their doctrine veiled in mystery and fear.
You and your husband will be fine; social beings always manage to gather a community.

Thank you!

 

[Ruby]

Ruby,

My heart is aching for you -- I am saddened to hear of this happening to your church, since you have often spoken of it so fondly. I am also saddened to hear of this happening to you and your husband -- whatever caused this pastor to suddenly turn on you both, it's definitely hurtful to be betrayed like that.

What I find disheartening here in these responses to your situation is the number of appeals to you to give up your faith simply because you are questioning and facing this terrible circumstance. I find this in poor taste, really. Yet at the same time I am compelled to assure you that there are really wonderful churches out there who share your beliefs and can help you grow as an individual. Christians have always questioned and wandered and grown in their faith for ages.

So maybe that makes my post in poor taste, too, but I do want to give you another view - just my view.

It's too soon to think of new churches, I agree. I think your idea of meeting with your friends who have also left the church for support is wise. I wish you all the best -- do keep us posted.


(I just had to use that emoticon -- hope you don't mind!!)

----,---'--{@

Thank you so much for your caring post.

I am ok with anyone making appeals to give up my faith. Likewise, I am ok with anyone making appeals for me to keep my faith.............so your post is not in poor taste!

What has been the outstanding thing for me in this thread, is the number of people who are supporting me and being sympathetic. As you probably know, since you are a liberal Christian like me, I would not get as much support and sympathy on a Christian fundamentalist forum. And I would hear tons of preaching. This is such a safe place for me.

Thanks for caring!

 

[Ruby]

Is it because you don't agree with the advice? I mean, is it possible for God to tell someone to do something that is against your own morality?

When it comes down to it, I am not so sure anyone really hears from God.

 

[shemp]

All churches are really cults. Sounds like he just wants to make it official.

 

[Ruby]

Hi Ruby,

You're a nice person, right? Your hubby sounds like a good guy who works hard, and the kids are the usual mixture of parental frustration and pride? You like helping other people, laughing, enjoying life? Welcome to the real world!

As I understand it, this is the third such "church" you have left, each time because of disagreements between yourself and it. Can I suggest that perhaps "church" as a concept is just not for you and your family? You just didn't seem to be happy there, did you.

No, church does not seem to work for me at all. I am way too liberal in my Christian beliefs to ever be happy in a church. Plus, for now, I am way too hurt, angry and disillusioned for church going. I might attend an in home church get together with the other ones who left my church. Although they are not as liberal as I am, they are liberal enough that I can deal with it........I think!

So perhaps, instead of wasting your Sundays being cooped up listening to a self-important tunnel-vision nincompoop drone on about the limitations they want to impose on you, can I suggest you spread your wings literally and figuratively and become fascinated with something else that would be much more productive and fulfilling for yourself, your family, your friends and your community. Make yourself happy and you can make others happy too.
Go for it!
Zep

Thanks!! I just might!!!!