We left our church

[arcticpenguin]

Ruby,

Congratulations on being able to recognize that things were going bad and having the courage to get out. There's no point in waiting for them to start passing out the kool-aid.

Don't be hasty in making decisions about your future religious affiliations. I have my own (lack of) beliefs, but I won't try to push them on you. I will point out that if you start your own church, there are some definite tax advantages.

 

[Ruby]

This may sound odd coming from an atheist, Ruby, but I urge you not to be too hard on your former pastor. A man can have all the love of God in his heart you could ever ask for, but he still has to eat and have a place to live. Small congregation pastors are always living on the ragged edge of disaster, and I can understand (though not sympathize with) his self-righteous anger. In his mind, he was giving people the word of God and not getting anything... or at least not enough... in return.

Although I don't believe in paying "tithes", I did give to my church. My hubby and I bought all the video equipment and gave a lot of money. I don't think there is anything wrong in a church collecting "tithes and offerings". What I do think is wrong is using manipulation tactics to get people to pay. Our Pastor has a another man take care of the "giving message" and prayer. Each time he asks us to take our "seed" (AKA. money) and have our entire family put our hands on it as he prays. This will somehow magically make us rich!!!!!

There is also another possibility, a bit more disturbing. Ruby, it is obvious to all on these boards that your are undergoing an intellectual awakening. You are questioning things you never did before and doing a lot of soul searching. As obvious as this is to us, it must be equally obvious to your fellow worshipers that this is not the meek little Ruby they used to know.

Except for one couple, no one else knows all that has been going with me. I never felt I could open to any of them. I'd get all the pat Christian answers and have people really worried. The one couple who does know are really cool and understanding....and liberal too. They were the first ones to leave after our Pastor's little message from God.

Thanks for your post!!

 

[Ruby]

Ruby, the road toward apostasy is tortuous to walk, and I suspect you will walk it, as most do, somewhat erratically. People at both ends of the road will look at you and be confused as to why you're not heading toward them - from their perspective you seem to be so close. If you're like me, then at some point your mind will get to the end of the road first; your soul will still be clinging to things lying along the road. Releasing those things may take many, many years - especially where loved ones are concerned. In fact, you may well lead different people to think you're at different points on the road; this is normal. Only you will know approximately where you are.

Hopefully! As for now, I am clueless where I stand.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby
I'm sorry for you and your husband. It's not fair that you should lose something good, and I am sure it is frightening to watch someone you used to know turn into a raving lunie.

Just walk away from this guy. If you still want to go to church, find a soup kitchen or someplace that you can volunteer. I'm pretty sure the big guy would rather have you spend a few hours a week helping out, rather than sitting on your butt listening to a dingbat.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby, I just read your initial post. You have my sympathy.

I wish I could say that your experience is uncommon or unusual. I am aware of several other church members that could tell similar stories. The problem often starts with one person being so cocksure that he knows the will of God, that he sees no room for discussion, no room for compromise, no possibility that he might be in error.

Yep. These are the same sort of reason why I left my previous two churches.

Often the church breaks apart as a result. Lots of feelings get hurt unnecessarily. There are often charges exchanged that the opposing side will go to Hell merely for disagreeing.

The first church I left, which is one of the most legalistic church org's. on the face of the planet, definitely believed I was headed for Hell after I left. The Pastor's wife told me I was "deceived in my heart".

It was my fortune to intimately witness a spectacular meltdown of a church, in which most of the elders sought to control the church. They insisted upon retaining a minister who would go along with whatever the elders wanted, but who everyone knew was a "dim bulb." All dissent was crushed. Anyone who did not agree with the elders' party line (including at least one dissident elder) were summarily kicked out of the church for being "factious." About one-third of the members were summarily excluded from a church that they helped build (and for some, was the centerpiece of their lives). And what was the burning question that led to this meltdown? It was this: "Is baptism by sprinkling legitimate?"

That is so nuts!!

And some pastors will privately mention a dirty little secret: some clergy go "around the bend." They lose a grip on reality. Usually they lose members of the congregation, too. It's possible that you witnessed this phenomenon in action. If the church is a hierarchical church, chances are the hierarchy will correct the problem... eventually. Getting rid of nutty clergy takes years to do, and usually the nut does so much damage that it is hard to find someone who wants to replace him!

Unfortunately, there is no hierarchy in our church. Our Pastor is totally in charge.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby,

Sounds as though Church was a support mechanism for you. I'm trully sorry to see that go for you through all your troubles. Look to your friends and family for that support.

Choosing not to go to church and lose the community in which you felt secure is difficult, but doable. Church is not necessary to your personal faith if you choose to make that so. If you choose to walk away from your faith, your friends will make a difference. But, expect that some of your friends will not understand the change you've chosen to make in life.

Thanks! My sole reason for being in church was for the social aspect....and because my little girl loved Sunday school. I expect to never hear from most of my friends again....

 

[Ruby]

How do you know that he really didn't talk to "God"?

I guess you will only believe "God's" word, if you agree with it, eh?

I expect he did talk to God, I just don't know if what he heard in reply was really from God.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby,

Sorry to hear about your church, but now might be the best time to examine the facts of the religion.

Read:

The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read (a red-covered compilation book that is wonderful)

Asimovs Guide to the Bible

Anything by Joseph Campbell

Thanks! I am reading so many books right now that I don't have time for more, but will keep these in mind.

 

[arcticpenguin]

Thanks! My sole reason for being in church was for the social aspect....and because my little girl loved Sunday school. I expect to never hear from most of my friends again....

Then maybe you should reconsider your definition of "friends".

 

[Ruby]

Homer Simpson had a similar experience...

 

[Ruby]

Do what I did, get arrested @ church. They are sure to not want you back after that.

Oh my goodness!! How did that happen? You don't have to tell if you don't want.

 

[Ruby]

I'd urge you to talk to the Bishop, or anyone else in the church in a position to step in. You don't say what particular church you attend, but it doesn't seem like it's one that gives the members of the church any authority to run their own church or vote on their ministers. If that were the case, you should contact the church board. But it would still help if you enlisted the other members who feel as you do to sign a petition to present to the Bishop.

Every church (except for lone charasmatic groups) has some sort of heirachy and a council of ministers. The man sounds like he needs help. Your fellow churchgoers certainly need help in dealing with this man.

My church was a "lone charasmatic" church!!! The Bishop ordained my Pastor, but does not have any say so otherwise. There is the possibility that he could convince the Pastor to back down from these new changes...but that's about all. The elders...who are secret to everyone....were chosen by our Pastor are under him. He answers to no one!!

 

[Ruby]

Ruby,

I think some very good points have been made here. I would like to add one of my own, though.

In our prior discussion, you indicated that one of your reasons for being a Christian was your need to have answers to those tough philosophical questions. It seems to me that, for a while, this Pastor was giving you answers that you were comfortable with, and now he is giving you answers you don't like.

I would hope this would reveal to you the arbitrariness of this approach. If you feel justified in accepting, or rejecting, the answers he gives you, based on whether you like them or not, then why not just cut out the middle-man, and make up your own answers?

Of course the answer is probably that you realize that if you just make up the answers yourself, then they are just fantasy, and not real answers. But that is the point I am trying to make here. If you really considered somebody, be it your Pastor, or the Church, or the Bible, or whatever, to be a reliable source of answers, then you would not reject the answers they give you just because you don't like them. On the other hand, if you do not consider them reliable sources, then it is not rational to accept their answers just because you do like them, either.

I would recommend that you stop looking for somebody to answer these questions for you, and instead try contemplating the questions for yourself. You may find that many of the questions you have been conditioned to feel are so important, are really meaningless. You may also find that many of the questions which you have always considered to be spiritual in nature, are really just philosophical, and can be answered without any appeal to supernatural agencies or mythology.

In particular, I would suggest you try reading up on some actual philosophy (as opposed to philosophical theological apologetics), and specifically, check out secular humanism. You may find that this philosophical system is more in tune with your own values than Christianity is, and it has the added bonus of not requiring you to adopt any metaphysical or supernatural beliefs.

Remember, finding answers is easy. Determining whether your answer is the right one or not, is hard. And that is something that no religion can provide.

Dr. Stupid

Thanks for your good suggestions. I am just trying to breathe for now.

 

[Ruby]

Seems like paranoia and early stage schizophrenia to me. If it mattered, I'd have a clinical psychiatrist attend a service.

You made the right choice, Ruby, as he's clearly becoming unglued. No person with a medical condition should have to attend church no matter what...that's craziness talking. Its also a sign of paranoia that the pastor should bring up private conversations in a sermon in order to silence (what he sees as) dissent.

I hope you find the right church ( I could recommend Unitarians but I guess that's not your style). In the meantime, don't give in to any false guilt in the matter. You and your husband did absolutely the right thing.

Thank you!!!!

 

[Brown]

That is so nuts!!

This is just the tip of the iceberg. The entire story (it would take about an hour to tell it from beginning to end) is filled with nuttiness. As for the question of whether baptism by sprinkling was legitimate, all of the elders except one believed that the Bible firmly settled the matter. The answer was "no," case closed, end of discussion.

The dissenting elder's position was: "I agree with you that baptism by immersion is the correct procedure, but I don't think that the Bible settles the question definitively." This "disagreement" enraged the other elders, who took a secret vote among themselves and decided to kick this dissenting elder out of the church. When some members of the congregation questioned the elders' action, these members were also threatened with being kicked out.

Hollywood would never make a movie with a plot this unbelievable. And yet it actually happened. The peace of God which passeth all understanding abandoned this little church, and its members basically went to war against each other over doctrinal matters that ranged from the trivial to the absurd.

As for a hierarchical church: A hierarchical church is a church that has a hierarchy of authority, with superintendents, bishops, popes, etc. having the responsibility to oversee and correct the member churches and their pastors. Not all churches are hierarchical.

 

[Ruby]

Re: Re: We left our church

Well Ruby, since you ask for opinions, I will give you mine.

Your pastor is not nuts, he is dying.

Judging by what has happened (the anger, the egotism, the personal connection with god, the demand for public support, and so on) and that this has happened so suddenly, I would say that he has suffered some sort of stroke or may have a brain tumor because one of the symptoms of these types of things is an abrupt personality change.

This sounds like a statement that my hubby made. He says that my Pastor is coming out with all this stuff because he knows his time is short!!

 

[Ruby]

Be strong,whatever you come up with.

Thank you. I am trying to be strong!

 

[Ruby]

Hi Ruby,
first let me offer my condolences for what must be a very difficult situation for you. I know that faith and worshipping in a familiar place are very important to people, so it must be a terrible experience to have your church so radically altered in so short a time that you have had to leave.
However, I'd like to offer you another view of what could be happening.

It could be that your pastor has had a crisis of faith that has brought on feelings of guilt and an over-reaction to these feelings.
As an example - I had a friend at University who was a liberal christian, she went to church every sunday but never evangelised or moralised. We had some really interesting discussions about religion and faith in general (I'm agnostic btw) because she was fully prepared to listen and accept other views.
Then her father died suddenly, they had been very close, and she had a crisis of faith. She couldn't understand how the God she worshipped could let her down so badly. After she came back from the funeral she was very quiet and introverted for a while. When I eventually managed to get to talk to her I found that she had changed completely. She had decided that her father's death had been a punishment because she hadn't been following "the word of God". She'd gone completely off the deep end.

It may not sound that similar a situation, but maybe the financial situation you mentioned left you pastor feeling abandoned by God, after all He should take care of his houses of worship shouldn't he? This could have led to him seeing it as a punishment from God for not preaching the way he should.

I know that this is just speculation, but I hope that my example shows how people can completely lose perspective without any ulterior motives or loss of sanity (at least not in the clinical sense).
If I were you I think I'd go and talk to a minister from another church, or even a totally different faith to get their opinion (I've found that most Rabbi's and catholic priests that I've talked to have been fairly balanced). They'll best understand how the pressures of the job affect people, and hopefully give you some perspective on the whole thing.

Best wishes for the future.

You could very well be right. Our Pastor definitely feels that he had been saying things wrong and not putting enough stress on other things. He feel certain that God is telling him to make these changes in order to put things right.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby,

Congratulations on being able to recognize that things were going bad and having the courage to get out. There's no point in waiting for them to start passing out the kool-aid.

Don't be hasty in making decisions about your future religious affiliations. I have my own (lack of) beliefs, but I won't try to push them on you. I will point out that if you start your own church, there are some definite tax advantages.

Thanks! I am too hurt and angry to think about going to another church or exploring other religions or anything. Just need to breathe!

 

[Ruby]

Then maybe you should reconsider your definition of "friends".

Yep!