We left our church

[Ruby]

Ruby,

Sorry for your huge let down. You were wronged by this man and that church. It has nothing to offer you and every reason for you to stay away forever.

There are lots more secular groups focusing on various activities in which one can develop a sense of community. You have the right idea forming your own little social group from some of those former church members.

Don't give it a second thought. If that guy thinks he has a direct line to God, he's just delusional or a liar.

I think he's delusional. I think it's a result of being under stress due to his own financial troubles and the finances of the church. Plus, a lot of regular church goers have slacked of going. Some have backed out of ministries too.

You sound intellectually strong and independent. That often leads to disillusionment with any church and the path to true free-thinking. Free thinking also often leads to a rejection of misplaced belief in a supernatural paternal figure who interferes in petty human affairs.

I do like the idea of free-thinking.

When you really think about it, religious prayer to a supernatural being is silliness and an abdication of responsibility for one's own acts and omissions.

This is pretty much how I see it.

Nature, not the supernatural, constrains all of us. We are products or it and natural beings ourselves. It's useless and counterproductive to look to some external supernatural force for guidance or assistance.

This is definitely what I am feeling. I feel it's useless and pointless to pray. Nothing really changes......although Christians swear up and down it does.

Revel in your newfound independence. It can be scary sometimes, but it's much more revealing, consistent, and "empowering," as much as I hate to use that word.

You did the right thing.

AS

I do hope to enjoy life more....once I get over this pain and hurt and utter disappointment.

Thank you!!!

 

[Ruby]

Any person that turns you off to religion that badly is a poor religious role model himself.

It's not you. It's not you. It's him.

He has changed course and you have not. He has changed course for the worse and you have not. God is still as He always has been. Stay on your course. When your Pastor looks up from his pulpit one day and sees nothing but his "secret society of elders" looking back at him, and then one day doesn't even see that, maybe he will get back on course.

Is there a higher council in your church you can raise this issue with? There usually is. You know, like a local-area administrative board. Something's happened to your Pastor; he needs serious help, and he's not going to be receptive to help coming from you or any of the other members of his flock. It'll have to come from higher up.

There is a Bishop...Bishop Kirby who is the one who ordained my Pastor. There is no council. Our Pastor has seen fit to prevent that. That means he is pretty much unaccountable to no one. Our friends, who left too, have thought of contacting Bishop Kirby, who might speak with Pastor, but Pastor does not have to do anything he says.

 

[Tricky]

This may sound odd coming from an atheist, Ruby, but I urge you not to be too hard on your former pastor. A man can have all the love of God in his heart you could ever ask for, but he still has to eat and have a place to live. Small congregation pastors are always living on the ragged edge of disaster, and I can understand (though not sympathize with) his self-righteous anger. In his mind, he was giving people the word of God and not getting anything... or at least not enough... in return.

Let's face it. Being a man of God is a job, like any other job, and sometimes you have to go to the board and ask for a raise.

There is also another possibility, a bit more disturbing. Ruby, it is obvious to all on these boards that your are undergoing an intellectual awakening. You are questioning things you never did before and doing a lot of soul searching. As obvious as this is to us, it must be equally obvious to your fellow worshipers that this is not the meek little Ruby they used to know.

I would not be surprised if word of your new "attitude" had reached the ears of your pastor, and it probably scared the heck out of him. If you should lead, or even inspire a revolt against the "standard teachings", it could be devastating to his career, and he would be best to cut his losses and get the "bad apple" out of the barrel before it infects the other with "dangerous ideas". This may sound evil and un-Christian, but, as I say, he has to think about his own livlihood. He may even convince himself that he is protecting others of the congregation.

But it is done. I urge you not to forget your lifetime of training, and find it in your heart to forgive him. He does not talk to God. He is just a human, like all of us. I hope that cutting these bonds will help you find a new path with fewer of those "walls" designed to keep you from wandering.

 

[Ruby]

Re: Re: We left our church

A question to ask yourself is "Why would God delay in delivering this message to your former pastor? Surely God would have known that the pastor's messages didn't include a strong influence on tithing and church involvement. Is it not possible that something else is motivating the pastor?

We are almost certain that there are reasons behind this supposed "word" from God. Pastor is definitely under a lot of financial strain.

BTW, the old "God wants your money" and "you can volunteer your time" while presumably the pastor has a paid position (most do) screams pyramid scheme to me, albeit a very short pyramid. I've heard a hundred times the "there are 168 hours in a week" and "how many are you giving to god?" sermon. Of course, it has been conveniently delivered by a man that is *paid* to do the work that he wants me to do free of charge. This is after a two hour commute and 50 hours of work, not to mention a family and all that comes with that. That was one of the items that pushed me away from the church.

What is nuts is that just a few weeks ago, our Pastor preached on how easily manipulated congregants can be. He even did a demonstration to prove it. He said he would borrow money from a bank before he asked us from money. Now, this past Sunday, he told a story how years ago he had decided he could not afford to pay tithes and was going to stop. Then, he claims that God spoke to him and said since he had thought to stop paying tithes, he was now going to pay double tithes for six months. He says his wife came to him and said God has said the same thing to her. Talk about manipulation. The message there was that we had better not think about not paying tithes as God might make us pay twice the amount.

That's absurd. We stopped paying tithes ages ago and no voice from heaven told us to start paying double. Our friends have not paid tithes for years, and nothing bad has happened to them, nor has God asked them to pay tithes.

What is their purpose? Why make them "secret"? Are they the CIAholes of the Pastor, out to keep tabs on the congregation? With such a small congregation, such formality/structure is suspect at best.

Yes, it is. Our Pastor says he does not tell us who the elders are due to not wanting us to feel jealous!!!! LOL!!!!! That is such a cop-out. I am sure that those who are *elders* are just *yes men*. Our Pastor has been in the habit of ordaining total idiots to be pastors/ministers. One of them, he has put in charge of a lot of things including the mens ministry. Some of the men, including my husband, would not even go to the mens ministry due to who was put in charge.

Interestingly, this is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to the teachings from the book he supposedly claims to believe. Doesn't it say to speak to the person with whom you have a problem directly and not to lay it out for public discussion?

Of course, how can he guilt you into falling into line without standing up at the pulpit and projecting an air of superiority?


Always better to badger the congregation than to meet people where they are... that's what the Bible says Jesus did... right? ;-)

Best of luck - you are better off without that clown anyhow!


Take care,
Sort
[/B]

Thank you!!!

 

[Ruby]

The suggestions of forming your own little house church is probably a good course of action. Maybe some of your fellow outcasts (how ironic at the number 13) could scout some of the other denominations to see if in a formal setting is really where you all need to be.

Maybe hanging out, having beer and natchos and discussing Galatians at the lake or at someone's house is more to the liking of some of you.

That sounds tempting! Funny thing is, all of us who left, are wine lovers!!! So, we'd have some Zinfandel and cabernet and maybe some coronas and just party!!

 

[Tez]

Ruby, the road toward apostasy is tortuous to walk, and I suspect you will walk it, as most do, somewhat erratically. People at both ends of the road will look at you and be confused as to why you're not heading toward them - from their perspective you seem to be so close. If you're like me, then at some point your mind will get to the end of the road first; your soul will still be clinging to things lying along the road. Releasing those things may take many, many years - especially where loved ones are concerned. In fact, you may well lead different people to think you're at different points on the road; this is normal. Only you will know approximately where you are.

Is it worth it? Well, my mind says yes...

 

[Yahzi]

Ruby
I'm sorry for you and your husband. It's not fair that you should lose something good, and I am sure it is frightening to watch someone you used to know turn into a raving lunie.

Just walk away from this guy. If you still want to go to church, find a soup kitchen or someplace that you can volunteer. I'm pretty sure the big guy would rather have you spend a few hours a week helping out, rather than sitting on your butt listening to a dingbat.

 

[Brown]

Ruby, I just read your initial post. You have my sympathy.

I wish I could say that your experience is uncommon or unusual. I am aware of several other church members that could tell similar stories. The problem often starts with one person being so cocksure that he knows the will of God, that he sees no room for discussion, no room for compromise, no possibility that he might be in error.

Often the church breaks apart as a result. Lots of feelings get hurt unnecessarily. There are often charges exchanged that the opposing side will go to Hell merely for disagreeing. This dyanamic can explain why some rural areas have several churches... people can't get along with one another and go off and form their own church.

It was my fortune to intimately witness a spectacular meltdown of a church, in which most of the elders sought to control the church. They insisted upon retaining a minister who would go along with whatever the elders wanted, but who everyone knew was a "dim bulb." All dissent was crushed. Anyone who did not agree with the elders' party line (including at least one dissident elder) were summarily kicked out of the church for being "factious." About one-third of the members were summarily excluded from a church that they helped build (and for some, was the centerpiece of their lives). And what was the burning question that led to this meltdown? It was this: "Is baptism by sprinkling legitimate?"

And some pastors will privately mention a dirty little secret: some clergy go "around the bend." They lose a grip on reality. Usually they lose members of the congregation, too. It's possible that you witnessed this phenomenon in action. If the church is a hierarchical church, chances are the hierarchy will correct the problem... eventually. Getting rid of nutty clergy takes years to do, and usually the nut does so much damage that it is hard to find someone who wants to replace him!

My reaction: You left your church? Good for you! Don't regret your decision!

 

[Trish]

Ruby,

Sounds as though Church was a support mechanism for you. I'm trully sorry to see that go for you through all your troubles. Look to your friends and family for that support.

Choosing not to go to church and lose the community in which you felt secure is difficult, but doable. Church is not necessary to your personal faith if you choose to make that so. If you choose to walk away from your faith, your friends will make a difference. But, expect that some of your friends will not understand the change you've chosen to make in life.

 

[thaiboxerken]

How do you know that he really didn't talk to "God"?

I guess you will only believe "God's" word, if you agree with it, eh?

 

[triadboy]

Ruby,

Sorry to hear about your church, but now might be the best time to examine the facts of the religion.

Read:

The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read (a red-covered compilation book that is wonderful)

Asimovs Guide to the Bible

Anything by Joseph Campbell

 

[Yahweh]

Hey, you left your church for the right reasons. A friend of mine said he, his wife, and kids left their church because "It allowed women to become pastors" or something to that effect.

I dont believe in god so I dont understand the importance of church. I wouldnt think absence from church would bar you from the pearly gates of heaven.

A person who criticizes and mocks others for staying home sick... not exactly a humanitarian is he. Maybe they just werent "sick enough" for his tastes.

 

[Yahweh]

Plus, he has developed a little *secret society* of *elders* that he won't reveal to anyone.

Homer Simpson had a similar experience...

 

[Tony]

Do what I did, get arrested @ church. They are sure to not want you back after that.

 

[Cinorjer]

I'd urge you to talk to the Bishop, or anyone else in the church in a position to step in. You don't say what particular church you attend, but it doesn't seem like it's one that gives the members of the church any authority to run their own church or vote on their ministers. If that were the case, you should contact the church board. But it would still help if you enlisted the other members who feel as you do to sign a petition to present to the Bishop.

Every church (except for lone charasmatic groups) has some sort of heirachy and a council of ministers. The man sounds like he needs help. Your fellow churchgoers certainly need help in dealing with this man.

 

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Ruby,

I think some very good points have been made here. I would like to add one of my own, though.

In our prior discussion, you indicated that one of your reasons for being a Christian was your need to have answers to those tough philosophical questions. It seems to me that, for a while, this Pastor was giving you answers that you were comfortable with, and now he is giving you answers you don't like.

I would hope this would reveal to you the arbitrariness of this approach. If you feel justified in accepting, or rejecting, the answers he gives you, based on whether you like them or not, then why not just cut out the middle-man, and make up your own answers?

Of course the answer is probably that you realize that if you just make up the answers yourself, then they are just fantasy, and not real answers. But that is the point I am trying to make here. If you really considered somebody, be it your Pastor, or the Church, or the Bible, or whatever, to be a reliable source of answers, then you would not reject the answers they give you just because you don't like them. On the other hand, if you do not consider them reliable sources, then it is not rational to accept their answers just because you do like them, either.

I would recommend that you stop looking for somebody to answer these questions for you, and instead try contemplating the questions for yourself. You may find that many of the questions you have been conditioned to feel are so important, are really meaningless. You may also find that many of the questions which you have always considered to be spiritual in nature, are really just philosophical, and can be answered without any appeal to supernatural agencies or mythology.

In particular, I would suggest you try reading up on some actual philosophy (as opposed to philosophical theological apologetics), and specifically, check out secular humanism. You may find that this philosophical system is more in tune with your own values than Christianity is, and it has the added bonus of not requiring you to adopt any metaphysical or supernatural beliefs.

Remember, finding answers is easy. Determining whether your answer is the right one or not, is hard. And that is something that no religion can provide.

Dr. Stupid

 

[Diamond]

Seems like paranoia and early stage schizophrenia to me. If it mattered, I'd have a clinical psychiatrist attend a service.

You made the right choice, Ruby, as he's clearly becoming unglued. No person with a medical condition should have to attend church no matter what...that's craziness talking. Its also a sign of paranoia that the pastor should bring up private conversations in a sermon in order to silence (what he sees as) dissent.

I hope you find the right church ( I could recommend Unitarians but I guess that's not your style). In the meantime, don't give in to any false guilt in the matter. You and your husband did absolutely the right thing.

 

[Crossbow]

I have loved and admired my Pastor due to his unique-ness and lack of "religiosity" and "charismania". He was one of a kind...that is, until he informed us that he had a special message from God that he was going to deliver to us all as a congregation. So, two weeks ago, on a Sunday morning, we sat and listened to this *message* from *God*.

Apparently, God has let him know that he has been doing things wrong as a Pastor and has built the church on the wrong foundation. He has not stressed paying tithes as he should, and not stressed people being involved in the church....amongst other things.

Plus, he has developed a little *secret society* of *elders* that he won't reveal to anyone.

We were very upset by this message. It was a total contradiction of everything he had ever preached in the past.

...

He's nuts!! It is not safe at all. It's scary. He talks like a dictator or a cult leader now. If I did not beleive n possession, I would say he was possessed.

He won't talk to us now...so we are writing a letter. We just want him to know that we feel betrayed.

I feel so hurt and frustrated over this whole thing. I don't want to ever go to church again. Church is Hell!!!!

Sorry to vent and rant!!!

Well Ruby, since you ask for opinions, I will give you mine.

Your pastor is not nuts, he is dying.

Judging by what has happened (the anger, the egotism, the personal connection with god, the demand for public support, and so on) and that this has happened so suddenly, I would say that he has suffered some sort of stroke or may have a brain tumor because one of the symptoms of these types of things is an abrupt personality change.

If I were you, I would not deal with him directly since that will not work, because where he is at you will never be able to reach him and it will just make a bad situation worse. It is easy for me to say of course, but if you still want to help then find someone that both of you can trust and who can be discreet about your role, and get the pastor in for a full medical exam as soon as possible.

Good luck!

 

[Darwin]

Be strong,whatever you come up with.

 

[wollery]

Hi Ruby,
first let me offer my condolences for what must be a very difficult situation for you. I know that faith and worshipping in a familiar place are very important to people, so it must be a terrible experience to have your church so radically altered in so short a time that you have had to leave.
However, I'd like to offer you another view of what could be happening.

It could be that your pastor has had a crisis of faith that has brought on feelings of guilt and an over-reaction to these feelings.
As an example - I had a friend at University who was a liberal christian, she went to church every sunday but never evangelised or moralised. We had some really interesting discussions about religion and faith in general (I'm agnostic btw) because she was fully prepared to listen and accept other views.
Then her father died suddenly, they had been very close, and she had a crisis of faith. She couldn't understand how the God she worshipped could let her down so badly. After she came back from the funeral she was very quiet and introverted for a while. When I eventually managed to get to talk to her I found that she had changed completely. She had decided that her father's death had been a punishment because she hadn't been following "the word of God". She'd gone completely off the deep end.

It may not sound that similar a situation, but maybe the financial situation you mentioned left you pastor feeling abandoned by God, after all He should take care of his houses of worship shouldn't he? This could have led to him seeing it as a punishment from God for not preaching the way he should.

I know that this is just speculation, but I hope that my example shows how people can completely lose perspective without any ulterior motives or loss of sanity (at least not in the clinical sense).
If I were you I think I'd go and talk to a minister from another church, or even a totally different faith to get their opinion (I've found that most Rabbi's and catholic priests that I've talked to have been fairly balanced). They'll best understand how the pressures of the job affect people, and hopefully give you some perspective on the whole thing.

Best wishes for the future.