Was Scrooge a Jew? Poll Included.

[fagin]

Now, Fagin... you won't get any arguments from me.

Hey, watch it!

 

[Foolmewunz]

Yes, I agree with that, even though I was the one who originally brought up the Scot. I brought it up mainly to show that if he was inspired by an ethnic stereotype, a Jew or "un-Jew" wasn't the only choice, or even the most obvious choice.

I really think the story fits best when seen in the light of how Christmas was being remade in the early 19th century. It was a broad enough change that the main character could be invisible, ethnically, to its intended main audience (Englishmen), i.e. not one of those Scots, or those Jews, but one of "us" (a fellow Englishman).

I realized from the tone of your post that you were merely pointing out another stereotypical interpretation if one wanted to go that way. Some seemed to be taking it a bit seriuosly (well, semi-seriously), though.

Hey, watch it!

Well, yeah. YOU would have to chime in.

 

[Spektator]

The word scrooge (with many spelling variants) goes back to 1755, according to the OED. It meant "to oppress, to encroach on another's space." Dickens used it in that sense in The Old Curiosity Shop, written a couple of years before A Christmas Carol. FWIW, the word itself is of Scottish origin.

 

[ChristineR]

What you have here is not an argument that the character is Jewish, but an argument that he was an example of an archetype that might have originally previously been inspired or defined by stereotypes of Jews. Your own use of the word "metaphor" shows this.

A similar case could be made that Star Trek's Vulcans (combined with how Romulans were depicted later) and Babylon 5's Minbari were heavily influenced by, or were used as literary examples of, or were representative/symbolic of, an archetype that can be traced back to Tolkien's Elves. But such an argument would not be an argument that they actually are Elves.

I really don't see how this is that different from my original statement that Scrooge was an un-Jew. It's a stupid made up word, I know.

 

[ChristineR]

No, actually, that's not fine.

Because it means you're not getting what skepticism is about.

None of the reasoning for the Scrooge-was-a-Jew idea has panned out, and it's contradicted by the text itself, the origin of the name, and history.

At that point, you can't simply choose to continue believing that it's so, and anyone who disagrees can suit themselves.

I mean, of course you're free to believe what you want, but when you're on a skeptical board, you just can't get away with that.

May I remind you again that I didn't start this thread? Please?

I presented my evidence. All I got was people saying that they didn't like it. The evidence is in the text itself and in the history. It's not something I made up. The origin of the name is mostly unknown anyhow and nothing about the name being Scottish is inconsistent with the possibility that Scrooge was not intended to be understood as a Jewish stereotype.

As for not being skeptical, so far no one has presented anything that I find to be a meaningful contradiction to the original theory. As for claiming that I'm ignoring evidence, why can't I just turn around and throw that at you? You say the reasoning didn't pan out, but I'm missing the part where you convince me it doesn't.

 

[Foolmewunz]

May I remind you again that I didn't start this thread? Please?

I have to question if you're actually reading the thread. This has been established. You did not start this thread. Your post, though, is the lead post because you started the DISCUSSION.

And, "He started it!" is not under investigation. I started the new thread. I said that. You, however, inspired the conversation with your opinions, stated as facts, on Scrooge.

I presented my evidence.

What evidence have you presented? Unsupported opinions. You've been asked to back up some of your contentions, but you haven't.

All I got was people saying that they didn't like it. The evidence is in the text itself and in the history. It's not something I made up. The origin of the name is mostly unknown anyhow and nothing about the name being Scottish is inconsistent with the possibility that Scrooge was not intended to be understood as a Jewish stereotype.

All you got was people citing actual text from the novel and actual historical data. Included therein is the understanding that we don't like your "evidence" because there is none. You've told us several times that we all should know what you know as common of that era, but you've not actually produced anything other than your hand-waving and statements of personal incredulity.

Others have provided you evidence from the text and from history as to where you're misinterpreting.

1. There was no controversy over Fagin until the late 1850s when the local Jewish council brought it to Dickens' attention. That was furthered by a letter he received from a friend. This was TEN YEARS after the publication of A Christmas Carol.
Ergo - cite for us some contemporary discussion about the controversy that would have caused Dickens to take Scrooge's Jewishness "underground". This is the nub of your original argument and is very important to the discussion. If there is no such evidence and no such controversy, then Dickens has no reason to mask the character's Jewishness.

2. Off the top of your head you cite the common knowledge that many Jews didn't keep Kosher in 1848. Please illuminate for me. I cannot find any such reference.

As for not being skeptical, so far no one has presented anything that I find to be a meaningful contradiction to the original theory. As for claiming that I'm ignoring evidence, why can't I just turn around and throw that at you? You say the reasoning didn't pan out, but I'm missing the part where you convince me it doesn't.

I raised a number of points, taken from the text. You have not addressed them nor showed why they would be wrong other than taking wild interpretations of a possible mixed marriage or families not keeping kosher.

1. His nephew mentions the holiness of the day. Is your contention that the nephew converted to Christianity and is flogging his notable Jewish uncle with that? Scrooge does not respond in any fashion that would indicate that he does not believe in baby jeebus. He responds that he will keep Christmas in his own way. A strange statement for a proto-jew, non-jew or Jew.

2. The ghosts flashback to an earlier Ebeneezzer Scrooge celebrating Christmas (not Channukah). Did Scrooge convert to Judaism? (Probably a bit rare in early Victorian England, wouldn't you say?)

3. The solicitation by the hearty gentlemen. They appeal to Scrooge's Christianity. Again, were they idiots? In a Victorian community where Jews were known as "Jews", would they appeal to one for a donation using the spirit of the most Christian of holidays as their appeal?

 

[slowsmile]

I always had Scrooge down as a member of one of the Methodist sects - which may be down to the fact the old "Primitive Methodist" chapel at the end of our road was called the "Ebenezer".

 

[Jack by the hedge]

...The ghosts flashback to an earlier Ebeneezzer Scrooge celebrating Christmas...

I was pretty sure that happened but couldn't lay my hands on the book to confirm. That's a bit of a slam dunk, IMO.

 

[Foolmewunz]

I was pretty sure that happened but couldn't lay my hands on the book to confirm. That's a bit of a slam dunk, IMO.

I'm reading the book in the evenings to Marcello. Last night we did The Ghost of Christmas Past. The first two incidents he shows Ebeneezer are the boarding school - where his sister comes to take him home to enjoy Christmas - and the Christmas Eve party when he was an apprentice at Fezziwig's. Both are replete with references to "Merry Christmas". *

Oh, and since Scrooge would've been in boarding school around the turn of the 19th century, I don't think you had Jews in Christian boarding schools and the children are quite clearly wishing each other a Merry Christmas as they leave for the holiday - the Christmas holiday.


*Interesting aside: When did the Brits adapt "Happy Christmas"? It only occurred to me when reading this yesterday that here we have Dickens, sort of the godfather of modern Christmas in his way, using "Merry" instead of "Happy" as early as 1843. If anyone had asked me a week ago, I'd have said Dickens used "Happy".

 

[Foolmewunz]

For anyone at a disadvantage, it's in the public domain.

You can read it on line.

http://www.stormfax.com/dickens.htm

I love the book and particularly the character. I was never a Dickens fan until I actually read this. I'd been forced through David Copperfield and Great Expectations in school, so this was an eye-opener.

 

[Rougarou]

It's a conversion from Judaism to Christianity, actually.

To be fair Scrooge is what I would call an un-Jew. There are lot of un-Jews in Victorian literature as well a lot of un-sex (but that's another story). An un-Jew is when every single bit of context and circumstance and behavior indicates that an unsympathetic character is Jewish but the narrator never comes out and says he's Jewish, or says something ambiguous, or even declares in a matter of fact and offhand way and without any further explanation that the character isn't Jewish.

Dickens was pretty antisemitic, but a direct statement would have been considered offensive, just as it would be now. However given the conventions of Victorian literature, no reader would be likely to miss the point.

To honor the citation agreement before reading the thread, this has been my impression from seeing the movies rather than reading the book. Scrooge and Marley strike me as Jewish stereotypes: greedy, shyster Christ deniers. Maybe other opinions here will change my mind.

 

[Pup]

I was pretty sure that happened but couldn't lay my hands on the book to confirm. That's a bit of a slam dunk, IMO.

For anybody interested, here's an early edition online that has actual images of the pages as they were published at the time:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MlMHAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover

Not a first edition, but 1845 though.

*Interesting aside: When did the Brits adapt "Happy Christmas"? It only occurred to me when reading this yesterday that here we have Dickens, sort of the godfather of modern Christmas in his way, using "Merry" instead of "Happy" as early as 1843. If anyone had asked me a week ago, I'd have said Dickens used "Happy".

Are you thinking of the last line of "A Visit from St. Nicholas," ironically written in New York: "Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night"?

 

[Ferguson]

Are you thinking of the last line of "A Visit from St. Nicholas," ironically written in New York: "Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night"?

"Happy Christmas" is commonly used in Ireland and the UK. My un-researched understanding is that Happy Christmas gained popularity in Britain because "Merry" had connotations of drunkenness and debauchery, and Queen Elizabeth II specifically avoids using the word for that reason.

 

[slowsmile]

Yes, in the British tradition Scotsmen and - to a lesser extent - Yorkshiremen are the stereotypical misers.

Na' then, ooer tha callin' tight?

You're right actually - I've got Scrooge down as a primitive methodist originating from one of the Pennine mill towns like Huddersfield or Halifax.

 

[Debaser]

I've heard that people from Yorkshire are like Scots with the generous streak removed.

In fact, I think you will find that Ebenezer Scrooge was a Yorkshireman (Old Testament names have survived in certain parts of the county as inter-generational family names).

For nearly 170 years we have actually been collecting public donations to erect a statue to this great man (who sadly lost his way in his later life, becoming unwholesomely friendly and charitable) in one of our great cities.

I have every confidence that by the time my great-great-grandchildren have reached their four-score years and ten, they wil be almost halfway there.

 

[Pup]

For nearly 170 years we have actually been collecting public donations to erect a statue to this great man (who sadly lost his way in his later life, becoming unwholesomely friendly and charitable) in one of our great cities.

I have every confidence that by the time my great-great-grandchildren have reached their four-score years and ten, they wil be almost halfway there.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

"Happy Christmas" is commonly used in Ireland and the UK. My un-researched understanding is that Happy Christmas gained popularity in Britain because "Merry" had connotations of drunkenness and debauchery, and Queen Elizabeth II specifically avoids using the word for that reason.

I hadn't heard of that.

I suppose I'm vaguely aware that people here in the UK sometimes say "Happy Christmas" but in my experience "Merry Christmas" is still the norm.

If someone wished me a "Happy Christmas" then I'd probably wish them the same back, but otherwise I'd no more likely use the phrase than I'd say "Merry Birthday".

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Maybe other opinions here will change my mind.

I recommend the evidence over the opinions.

 

[Foolmewunz]

I hadn't heard of that.

I suppose I'm vaguely aware that people here in the UK sometimes say "Happy Christmas" but in my experience "Merry Christmas" is still the norm.

If someone wished me a "Happy Christmas" then I'd probably wish them the same back, but otherwise I'd no more likely use the phrase than I'd say "Merry Birthday".

My Brit friends generally say "Happy Christmas", which is virtually unheard in the States.

 

[Foolmewunz]

To honor the citation agreement before reading the thread, this has been my impression from seeing the movies rather than reading the book. Scrooge and Marley strike me as Jewish stereotypes: greedy, shyster Christ deniers. Maybe other opinions here will change my mind.

As Jack mentioned, the evidence would be more important than our opinions. I'd be hesitant to take the film versions as completely faithful to the book. One of them (I think Scrooge, The Musical with Albert Finney - a truly horrible work) has Scrooge out collecting barrow rents from shivering scruffy poor folks and enjoying it immensely. Said scene is no where in the novel.

In fact, I think you will find that Ebenezer Scrooge was a Yorkshireman (Old Testament names have survived in certain parts of the county as inter-generational family names).

For nearly 170 years we have actually been collecting public donations to erect a statue to this great man (who sadly lost his way in his later life, becoming unwholesomely friendly and charitable) in one of our great cities.

I have every confidence that by the time my great-great-grandchildren have reached their four-score years and ten, they wil be almost halfway there.

Well, contrary to my comments above, I'm going by opinion on this one. In my opinion it should be nominated for Pith. So nominated!