Was Scrooge a Jew? Poll Included.

[Jack by the hedge]

The name is definitely scottish, as Dickens got it from a gravestone that read "Ebenezer Lennox Scroggie", and was the marker for an Edinburgh vintner.

Now I never knew that. It makes much more sense for Scrooge to be Scottish, since the miser reputation was applied just as much to Scots as to Jews, and Christmas was hardly celebrated in Scotland at that time (New Year was the big party). That lasted right up until my dad's generation; in the post-war years he only got a half day holiday for Christmas day.

 

[Delvo]

moneylender was all but synonymous with Jew at the time.

Scrooge didn't celebrate Christmas. The most common reason for not celebrating Christmas would be that he was Jewish...

you basically have a metaphor where Jews are stingy and hostile and converting to Christianity makes them generous and friendly overnight...

As I said, he's technically not a Jew, but practically does appear to be a Jew. Although the Christian nephew could be explained by a mixed marriage that estranged Scrooge from his relatives, it could also be Dickens' attempt to make him technically Christian...

What you have here is not an argument that the character is Jewish, but an argument that he was an example of an archetype that might have originally previously been inspired or defined by stereotypes of Jews. Your own use of the word "metaphor" shows this.

A similar case could be made that Star Trek's Vulcans (combined with how Romulans were depicted later) and Babylon 5's Minbari were heavily influenced by, or were used as literary examples of, or were representative/symbolic of, an archetype that can be traced back to Tolkien's Elves. But such an argument would not be an argument that they actually are Elves.

 

[ChristineR]

Look, I didn't start this thread. The mods started this thread and put my name on it. I have no idea where they came up with the poll. I'm not really interested in a big argument to convince people that Scrooge was a Jew. I do happen to believe that the evidence supports that conclusion though. If you don't buy it, fine.

Most of the information about Oliver Twist and the Fagin controversy is available in the Wikipedia article on Oliver Twist.

As far as "Jew" equaling moneylender it's the standard usage in Victorian novels.

Moneylenders need warehouses because they hold goods as collateral. Even beyond that a moneylender can have a warehouse business as well.

I haven't ignored anything. On the contrary, I've tried to answer everything that been brought up. I'm trying to cook a damn turkey and I'm being asked to come up with cites for stuff that's pretty freely available, such as why Dickens would be defending his attitudes about Jews in a letter. I don't see what the dates of editing Oliver Twist have to do with this, sorry.

 

[Joey McGee]

FWIW jewornotjew.com rates scrooge as "not a jew" 3 out a possible 15. Mel Gibson being a 0 and Mel Brooks being a 15.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I'm now completely sold on the idea of Scrooge being a Scottish stereotype. A miser who didn't celebrate Christmas but whose English relatives did. And he was eventually presuaded to do so himself. Works for me.

 

[zooterkin]

Look, I didn't start this thread. The mods started this thread and put my name on it. I have no idea where they came up with the poll. I'm not really interested in a big argument to convince people that Scrooge was a Jew.

See this post where Foolmewunz started the thread including the poll; the posts from the other thread were merged in later, but appear first because they have an earlier posting date.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

There is ample evidence that Scrooge was Scottish.

I can cite Disney in support.

Didn't George C. SCOTT play Scrooge once? Case closed!

 

[zooterkin]

...
Most of the information about Oliver Twist and the Fagin controversy is available in the Wikipedia article on Oliver Twist.
...

I don't see what the dates of editing Oliver Twist have to do with this, sorry.

The edits to Oliver Twist were made after 1860 (after Dickens sold his house to a Jewish banker, and became friends with him and his wife). A Christmas Carol was published in 1843. Your suggestion that the supposed Jewishness of Scrooge was removed because of adverse reaction to Fagin is not supported by the dates.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Now, Fagin... you won't get any arguments from me.

It's a bit difficult to avoid when they refer to him as "The Jew" quite literally nearly 50 times as many as they refer to him as Fagin in the first edition.

 

[Steve]

The name is definitely scottish, as Dickens got it from a gravestone that read "Ebenezer Lennox Scroggie", and was the marker for an Edinburgh vintner.

(OT, sorry) They grew wine grapes in Scotland? In the 19th century?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

(OT, sorry) They grew wine grapes in Scotland? In the 19th century?

Vendor of wines in this case.

 

[zooterkin]

(OT, sorry) They grew wine grapes in Scotland? In the 19th century?

I'm pretty sure they sold wine there, though.

 

[Steve]

(OT, sorry) They grew wine grapes in Scotland? In the 19th century?

Vendor of wines in this case.

I'm pretty sure they sold wine there, though.

Ok, you forced me to do the research and I now see that vintner is an acceptable word for a wine seller, particularly in the UK. Thanks (and enough of this derail).

 

[Foolmewunz]

@ChristineR,
I'm the guilty party. I thought the discussion was interesting and worth following up so asked the mods to split the comments off to the new thread with the poll. As mentioned, the forum software merely sorts by date so your post appears first in the merged thread.

I didn't mean to put you on the spot. I mentioned that I've seen this interpretation before, and I thought others would support it and we'd have a "friendly and lively" discussion.

Apparently at least a couple of people agree with you (from the poll) but haven't spoken up.

 

[Information Analyst]

Now I never knew that. It makes much more sense for Scrooge to be Scottish, since the miser reputation was applied just as much to Scots as to Jews, and Christmas was hardly celebrated in Scotland at that time (New Year was the big party). That lasted right up until my dad's generation; in the post-war years he only got a half day holiday for Christmas day.

Yes, in the British tradition Scotsmen and - to a lesser extent - Yorkshiremen are the stereotypical misers.

"Ye'll no be havin' a sale, will ye?!"

 

[Piggy]

I do happen to believe that the evidence supports that conclusion though. If you don't buy it, fine.

No, actually, that's not fine.

Because it means you're not getting what skepticism is about.

None of the reasoning for the Scrooge-was-a-Jew idea has panned out, and it's contradicted by the text itself, the origin of the name, and history.

At that point, you can't simply choose to continue believing that it's so, and anyone who disagrees can suit themselves.

I mean, of course you're free to believe what you want, but when you're on a skeptical board, you just can't get away with that.

 

[Piggy]

I'm now completely sold on the idea of Scrooge being a Scottish stereotype. A miser who didn't celebrate Christmas but whose English relatives did. And he was eventually presuaded to do so himself. Works for me.

Yeah, me too. It's entirely sensible and consistent.

 

[saraban]

Yes, in the British tradition Scotsmen and - to a lesser extent - Yorkshiremen are the stereotypical misers.

"Ye'll no be havin' a sale, will ye?!"

I've heard that people from Yorkshire are like Scots with the generous streak removed.

 

[Foolmewunz]

HIs name was inspired by a Soctsmans tombstone (which Dickens mis-read, by the way), but I don't think he's meant to be any more a Scot than he is a Jew. Again, the actual Canon does not support this.

He's meant to be an Englishman who got caught up in the lust for wealth and "lost his way". It takes the four ghosts to bring him back to his senses, as it were. And thanks to the lead provided above, it's apparent that Dickens modeled him after Elwes, who was neither Scot nor Jew, but a bona fide Englishman.

 

[Pup]

HIs name was inspired by a Soctsmans tombstone (which Dickens mis-read, by the way), but I don't think he's meant to be any more a Scot than he is a Jew. Again, the actual Canon does not support this.

He's meant to be an Englishman who got caught up in the lust for wealth and "lost his way".

Yes, I agree with that, even though I was the one who originally brought up the Scot. I brought it up mainly to show that if he was inspired by an ethnic stereotype, a Jew or "un-Jew" wasn't the only choice, or even the most obvious choice.

I really think the story fits best when seen in the light of how Christmas was being remade in the early 19th century. It was a broad enough change that the main character could be invisible, ethnically, to its intended main audience (Englishmen), i.e. not one of those Scots, or those Jews, but one of "us" (a fellow Englishman).