Was Scrooge a Jew? Poll Included.

[ChristineR]

Umm... Remember, we're not talking about a religious conversion here, rather a major attitude change.

It's a conversion from Judaism to Christianity, actually.

To be fair Scrooge is what I would call an un-Jew. There are lot of un-Jews in Victorian literature as well a lot of un-sex (but that's another story). An un-Jew is when every single bit of context and circumstance and behavior indicates that an unsympathetic character is Jewish but the narrator never comes out and says he's Jewish, or says something ambiguous, or even declares in a matter of fact and offhand way and without any further explanation that the character isn't Jewish.

Dickens was pretty antisemitic, but a direct statement would have been considered offensive, just as it would be now. However given the conventions of Victorian literature, no reader would be likely to miss the point.

 

[Foolmewunz]

It's a conversion from Judaism to Christianity, actually.

To be fair Scrooge is what I would call an un-Jew. There are lot of un-Jews in Victorian literature as well a lot of un-sex (but that's another story). An un-Jew is when every single bit of context and circumstance and behavior indicates that an unsympathetic character is Jewish but the narrator never comes out and says he's Jewish, or says something ambiguous, or even declares in a matter of fact and offhand way and without any further explanation that the character isn't Jewish.

Dickens was pretty antisemitic, but a direct statement would have been considered offensive, just as it would be now. However given the conventions of Victorian literature, no reader would be likely to miss the point.

This became a meme amongst fundies and ironically Jews who look everywhere for signs of anti-semitism a few decades ago. I've never taken to the theory.

I think they're confusing Scrooge with Stooge. The 3 Stooges were definitely Jewish. Ebeneezer Scrooge, not so much. In Victorian England the perception of Christmas as a secular holiday was not like it is today. Young Ebeneezer celebrated Christmas with the best of them. Those flashbacks probably would not have been included if the character was meant to be Jewish. Scrooge was meant to be the embodiment of the Victorian pursuit of wealth above all else. Dickens has far more instances of criticism of this sort of behaviour in his canon than he does of anti-semitism. I'm not denying that he was an anti-semite - most people of his time were - I'm just arguing that it's not visible in this story unless you really reach for it.

 

[ChristineR]

Scrooge was a moneylender, though. In Victorian England "Jew" and "Moneylender" were synonyms. It's true that his family celebrated Christmas when he was young and his nephew does also so I'm thinking some sort of mixed marriage might have been implied. It would be reasonably common and a reason for his estrangement from his relatives.

Like I say, he's an "un-Jew." I don't think it's a reach at all, though.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Scrooge was a moneylender, though. In Victorian England "Jew" and "Moneylender" were synonyms. It's true that his family celebrated Christmas when he was young and his nephew does also so I'm thinking some sort of mixed marriage might have been implied. It would be reasonably common and a reason for his estrangement from his relatives.

Like I say, he's an "un-Jew." I don't think it's a reach at all, though.

Actually, I don't think he was ever identified as a money-lender. Running a "counting house" was about as far as it went. He might've been an accountant/accounting firm. Again, Dickens had a lot more hatred for the moneyed classes than he did for Jews - it runs through all his work. His anti-semitism was more incidental than predominant.

If you have to reach for an implied mixed marriage, do you think you're working too hard? I've also heard the contention that "Jacob" and "Ebeneezer" were obvious Jewish names, particularly Jacob. But that ignores the millions of Victorian (and pre-Victorian) Christians who took names from the OT.

Sorry, but Ebeneezer was a fallen Christian. Turned from the True Light of His Love^TM by his own feelings and his own greed.

Now, Fagin... you won't get any arguments from me.

ETA: Correction... "sat busy in his counting house". Does not mean his firm was an accounting firm, but that this is where he tallied his accounts. However, considering that on page one they note that Scrooge never painted over Marley's name on the warehouse door, there's certainly a statement that he was not in "financial services" (e.g. moneylending) solely. He traded in goods.

 

[Pup]

Scrooge was a moneylender, though. In Victorian England "Jew" and "Moneylender" were synonyms. It's true that his family celebrated Christmas when he was young and his nephew does also so I'm thinking some sort of mixed marriage might have been implied. It would be reasonably common and a reason for his estrangement from his relatives.

Like I say, he's an "un-Jew." I don't think it's a reach at all, though.

How could one tell when a character from that era wasn't an un-Jew, then, if he had the trait of miserliness? Or would any miserly character be defined as an un-Jew?

It seems to me more likely that there was a stereotype of a miserly person, which people believed applied to all Jews and some non-Jews, rather than a stereotype of a Jew which could also be applied to some Christians.

 

[bruto]

The unjew theory is interesting for sure, but I don't quite buy it. First of all, Scrooge is not a moneylender in the traditional sense reserved for Jews. He's more of a banker or financier, it seems, and there's no implication that his business is not reputable in the mainstream of business and society. He's just a hard boss with a poor social life. Second, Dickens was not notably shy about identifying Jews as such when it was convenient, was he? He certainly didn't seem to have to pussyfoot around Fagin.

While anything is possible, I think it's a stretch to assume that Dickens had any desire or need to encode his tale. Scrooge is, for whatever reason, a miser and a misanthrope, and, for whatever reason, he finds that this life has not served him well. When he muses on its implications, (you can choose hallucination, dream, fiction or true ghostly visitation with little difference in result), he realizes that he'd be far better off to shed that persona and does so to everyone's benefit. If it's popular and well loved, it's partly, I think, because it is so generalized and universal, without addressing any religious or ethnic divisions. The religious aspect of Christmas here is assumed to the degree that it need not be dealt with. It is so comfortably enveloped in its Christian framework that it can get away with being essentially a secular story.

Is there any reason to believe that Dickens couldn't have been more explicit if he'd wished to be? I don't recall Dickens ever being very shy about saying just what he meant, so if this story seems to be about a change of outlook rather than a change of religion, why not take it as such? Perhaps I am wrong, but Dickens seems like one of those authors on whom exegesis is wasted.

e.t.a. I like Gawdzilla's ergot. Scrooge is just the sort of character who would eat bad bread and wash it down with bad water or spoiled beer.

 

[ChristineR]

Actually Fagin is a key point in the un-Jewish theory. Dickens was heavily criticized for Fagin and removed many of the explicit references to his Jewishness in later editions. If Scrooge really is an un-Jew the "un-" prefix was probably a response to the criticisms about Fagin.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Actually Fagin is a key point in the un-Jewish theory. Dickens was heavily criticized for Fagin and removed many of the explicit references to his Jewishness in later editions. If Scrooge really is an un-Jew the "un-" prefix was probably a response to the criticisms about Fagin.

Maybe the mods could remove the Jew/Not Jew discussion to a new thread. I'll go start one in a minute.

Again, you're working too hard to find these connections. Just read the first chapter. (It's my daddy's current bedtime reading to Marcello. That's why I was able to flip to the comment on the "warehouse".)

Firstly, his nephew goes into holy roller mode in one paragraph. If this was the mixed marriage, wouldn't there have been some comment at that point? And does Scrooge say, "You know I believe not in your Christmas".... No. He says, "You keep Christmas in your way and let me keep it in mine" (I paraphrase, but not by much. He goes on to extend that to say that his own version is actually in the NOT keeping of it.

None of those arguments would be made by a Jew. Nor a proto-Jew, nor a non-Jew. The keeping of Christmas or not keeping of Christmas would not occur to a Jew.

Further, the two fundraisers come in and try to sign Scrooge up for a donation, citing the Christian spirit of the holiday (again I paraphrase, but not much). Would they have made such an appeal to a Jewish Moneylender. Definitely not. They were appealing to his Christian fellowship and all that rot.

No, as I said, Scrooge is to represent just the opposite. A Christian who strayed from the message and got all wrapped up in the pursuit of wealth. The flashbacks from the Ghost of Christmas Past show that he was originally of good cheer and fellowship like everyone else, but got sucked into the pursuit of business and money. That was his downfall with his beloved and it's quite apparent that that is the overwhelming moral theme of the novel.

 

[Foolmewunz]

In a derail in another thread, it is being discussed whether or not Ebeneezer Scrooge, like Fagin before him, was meant to be Jewish.

I'll ask the mods if they'll move those posts, but we can battle out here if there's any interest.

Poll included (no, you yutz,... multiple choice is not allowed).


ETA: Here's the link to the original thread. I've asked if a kindly mod would perhaps move them over here, but in case they're a little busy,....
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7784014#post7784014

 

[Cainkane1]

In a derail in another thread, it is being discussed whether or not Ebeneezer Scrooge, like Fagin before him, was meant to be Jewish.

I'll ask the mods if they'll move those posts, but we can battle out here if there's any interest.

Poll included (no, you yutz,... multiple choice is not allowed).


ETA: Here's the link to the original thread. I've asked if a kindly mod would perhaps move them over here, but in case they're a little busy,....
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7784014#post7784014

He wasn't a jew in the finished story but he may have been in the rough draft. I believe Dickens had already gotten in trouble with the jewish community by writing a story about a jew who taught street urchines to pick pockets.

I get the impression that Scrooge was a non practising christian who got into the spirit of christmas via ghosts.

 

[Vic333]

It seems Dickens mentioned politician John Elwes (famous for being a miser), and it's theorized he may have been the (or an) inspiration for the character.

 

[Foolmewunz]

He wasn't a jew in the finished story but he may have been in the rough draft. I believe Dickens had already gotten in trouble with the jewish community by writing a story about a jew who taught street urchines to pick pockets.

I get the impression that Scrooge was a non practising christian who got into the spirit of christmas via ghosts.

Since we know nothing of the original draft, it's hard to say. Oliver twist had been a decade earlier, at least. He did take some heat from fellow liberals for the porrayal of Fagin, but I don't think he was smarting over if for ten years, nor do I think he was at a point in his career where he needed to codify his opinions. If he was virulently anti-Semitic, perhaps. But I don't read Dickens as being more anti-Semitic than most of his era.

I concur with your reading of the character though. I see him as a fallen Christian.

 

[Foolmewunz]

It seems Dickens mentioned politician John Elwes (famous for being a miser), and it's theorized he may have been the (or an) inspiration for the character.

Wow, fascinating reading on Elwes. Never heard of him before - thanks for that! I read a bunch, but here's a quick article for anyone interested.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-meet-MP-lived-like-tramp-inspired-story.html


Re his own illegitimate kids:

Though fond of the children, he refused to educate them, saying putting ideas in their heads would only lead to their frittering away money.

 

[geni]

The story doesn't work very well if he is a jew. Firstly that would provide a justification for his ignoring christmas. Secondly it the approach the ghosts use rely very much on the hooks that someone would only have if they already had some kind of christmas is special built in.

 

[wardenclyffe]

His nephew, Fred (his sister's son), certainly does not seem to be Jewish based on the way that he relentlessly promotes X-mas. I think that's a pretty good indicator that Scrooge is not Jewish, otherwise his sister converted or he did. Either way, that would be something pretty big in the family and probably would have been mentioned in the story.

Ward

 

[Darat]

Can't see why Dicken's wouldn't have made it very clear that Scrooge was Jewish if that was meant to be part of the story. He was writing popular fiction for the lowest common denominator and sadly anti-Semitism was still part and parcel of Victorian society, so he had no reason to avoid it.

 

[Mojo]

Nice to see that the poll is closing for Christmas.

This poll will close on 24th December 2011 at 02:12 AM

 

[Foolmewunz]

Nice to see that the poll is closing for Christmas.

Thank you. I thought that was a nice touch, myself.

(And threads in this sub-forum never seem to have a sense of urgency. Some of the discussions, while not containing overwhelming numbers of posts, seem to take on a nice leisurely pace.)

 

[Puppycow]

I see that two people have promised to cite evidence that he was Jewish, but have yet to make an appearance.

Like Darat said, if he was supposed to be Jewish, it would have been made clear, not subtly hinted at.

It seems he was raised as a Christian, IIRC from the Ghost of Christmas past.

 

[Captain Obvious]

If Scrooge wasn't already a Jew he was certainly taking his final exams.