It's going to be a bit one-sided without someone arguing the proposition that Scrooge was Jewish. I read the posts in the other thread, and all I see are unsupported, and unconvincing, assertions.
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Was Scrooge a Jew? Poll Included.
- Thread starter ChristineR
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Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Oh, now you've ruined it! Put those plot give-aways in Spoiler Tags. We're not at that part, yet!
(I'm reading the story to Marcello in the evenings. He doesn't get most of it but he loves Christmas like a duck loves water, so he'll put up with it.... and because I do all sorts of voices for him.)whatthebutlersaw
Dessert Arsonist
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Dickens lived in a time when anti-semitism was par de course. If he'd wanted to make Scrooge a Jew, he would have, with impunity. I would also have found it odd that a Jew would have "lost" a spirit of Christmas that he grew up with.
As Ian Hislop points out in When Bankers Were Good on BBC1 - Jewish bankers in Victorian britain were quite well known as humanitarians keeping up the tradition of the tithe. To Dickens, who cared about that stuff a LOT, the Rothschilds and their philantropy would not have been unknown.
To lose the spirit of Christmas, surely Scrooge would have had to have been Christian to begin with?
But above all, even if Scrooge's family had been secular Jews who were happy to have at both Xmas and Hanukkah, Dickens lived in a time when if you wanted to bash Jews, you bashed Jews. If he wanted Scrooge to be Jewish, he would likely have been, unambiguously so.
As Ian Hislop points out in When Bankers Were Good on BBC1 - Jewish bankers in Victorian britain were quite well known as humanitarians keeping up the tradition of the tithe. To Dickens, who cared about that stuff a LOT, the Rothschilds and their philantropy would not have been unknown.
To lose the spirit of Christmas, surely Scrooge would have had to have been Christian to begin with?
But above all, even if Scrooge's family had been secular Jews who were happy to have at both Xmas and Hanukkah, Dickens lived in a time when if you wanted to bash Jews, you bashed Jews. If he wanted Scrooge to be Jewish, he would likely have been, unambiguously so.
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Tomtomkent
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Scrooge was not, to my eyes, a Jew or a money lender. The nature of Scrooge and Marley as a company is not identified. The countinghouse suggests an accountant, but could also be landlords, shipping and imports, or a number of other white collar practices.
Unlike Fagan who was clearly described as being a stereotypical Jew Scrooge seems to have had a distinctly Christian upbringing. It is worth noting that he was not unusual as a christian either. Christmas day was a holy day not a holiday. Burke was sentenced to death on a christmas day while courts are open. The poultry seller is open for scrooge to order his goose from to take to his clerk and tiny tim. Cratchet was far from alone being expected to toil.
Traditionally it would have been 12th night when the end of the holiday was celebrated with a beano.
Given Dickens connection to Rochester, I would be surprised if he assumed all Jews to be Fagans and Scrooges. I have no evidence for the notion but I would like, wishfully perhaps, to think he took the train south for an hour to Faversham, and was aware of the jewish community in Solomans lane who had strong possitive connections to the community.
Unlike Fagan who was clearly described as being a stereotypical Jew Scrooge seems to have had a distinctly Christian upbringing. It is worth noting that he was not unusual as a christian either. Christmas day was a holy day not a holiday. Burke was sentenced to death on a christmas day while courts are open. The poultry seller is open for scrooge to order his goose from to take to his clerk and tiny tim. Cratchet was far from alone being expected to toil.
Traditionally it would have been 12th night when the end of the holiday was celebrated with a beano.
Given Dickens connection to Rochester, I would be surprised if he assumed all Jews to be Fagans and Scrooges. I have no evidence for the notion but I would like, wishfully perhaps, to think he took the train south for an hour to Faversham, and was aware of the jewish community in Solomans lane who had strong possitive connections to the community.
Pup
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If one wants to argue that Scrooge was a "Jew," one could just as easily argue that he was a "Scott," a miserly Presbyterian who didn't believe in merry-making on Christmas.
At the time the story was originally published, Christmas was being remade into a festive nostaligic family holiday, from its previous traditions as a wild, raucous holiday, or an uncelebrated or seriously religious day.
So I think that Scrooge was a more recognizable Christian type then, than now, and the lesson that Dickens was presenting was part of that greater context, a continuing British version of Washington Irving's stories attempting to remake Christmas the same way in the U.S.
At the time the story was originally published, Christmas was being remade into a festive nostaligic family holiday, from its previous traditions as a wild, raucous holiday, or an uncelebrated or seriously religious day.
So I think that Scrooge was a more recognizable Christian type then, than now, and the lesson that Dickens was presenting was part of that greater context, a continuing British version of Washington Irving's stories attempting to remake Christmas the same way in the U.S.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
Who knows?
leon_heller
Graduate Poster
When Scrooge was young, he appears to have been a Christian. For instance, he celebrated Christmas at the Fezziwigs. Moreover, Scrooge isn't a Jewish name, and biblical first names were common then.
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
When the Ghost of Christmas Past appeared to him, Scrooge said he might have been a bit of undigested beef, a blot of potato or something. So Scrooge mixed meat with dairy, something a Jew wouldn't do. And why wouldn't it be the Ghost of Chanukah Past?
Scrooge was clearly Christian, but lapsed.
Scrooge was clearly Christian, but lapsed.
Tomtomkent
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I stated why I dont think Scrooge was Jewish in the other thread. I think here we should describe the turbulant history that would drive Jews to London over the next half century or so. It is worth taking a look at the wider context of Eastern European pogroms and uprisings that blighted the latter half of the nineteenth century. I can't remember the exact date of publication and think Dickens was writing a bit early for the most visible signs, but the vast majority of jews would not have been the rich penny pinchers of CTs. Whitechappel was full of men with a slender grasp of English working in production linesas tailors or shoemakers.
That is not to say rich professional jews were unheard of. How ever popular perception is a fluid beast that jumps between highly limited stereo types. There was a far broader spectrum of Jewish communities than people tend to think of, and many jews were suffering exactly the conditions that Dickens would spend his career speaking out against.
That is not to say rich professional jews were unheard of. How ever popular perception is a fluid beast that jumps between highly limited stereo types. There was a far broader spectrum of Jewish communities than people tend to think of, and many jews were suffering exactly the conditions that Dickens would spend his career speaking out against.
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
Duplicate. Deleted.
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ChristineR
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I have to do the big bird thing. Don't have time to read over the story just now.
Scrooge appears to have been a moneylender. His exact profession is not obvious, but people do owe him money. I'll go searching for the passages later. As I said, moneylender was all but synonymous with Jew at the time.
Scrooge didn't celebrate Christmas. The most common reason for not celebrating Christmas would be that he was Jewish.
As I said before, Dickens was far from being able to freely insult Jews. He was heavily criticized for Fagin and had to edit Fagin's Jewishness out of later editions. The Fagin saga taken in context supports the theory the Scrooge was Jewish.
On the other hand, if Scrooge was Jewish, you basically have a metaphor where Jews are stingy and hostile and converting to Christianity makes them generous and friendly overnight. Which is pretty Antisemitic, if you're looking for that.
Many Jews in London at the time, then as now, didn't keep Kosher. Making the Jewish moneylenders non-religious Jews was actually a common trick in Victorian literature. It differentiated the "bad Jews" from the "real Jews" but let the authors present Jews with the worst possible stereotypes.
As I said, he's technically not a Jew, but practically does appear to be a Jew. Although the Christian nephew could be explained by a mixed marriage that estranged Scrooge from his relatives, it could also be Dickens' attempt to make him technically Christian.
The drawings of Scrooge in the original (again this requires a little research which I don't have time for right now) were created with Dickens' help and they are of the classic stereotype Jew.
If you read a lot of Victorian literature you will find authors dealing with Jews quite a lot, and unkind stereotypes are also quite common. It's very common to find a "good Jew" who keeps kosher and behaves quite charitably alongside a miserly, nasty stereotype. Scrooge really does seem to be one of the latter.
Scrooge appears to have been a moneylender. His exact profession is not obvious, but people do owe him money. I'll go searching for the passages later. As I said, moneylender was all but synonymous with Jew at the time.
Scrooge didn't celebrate Christmas. The most common reason for not celebrating Christmas would be that he was Jewish.
As I said before, Dickens was far from being able to freely insult Jews. He was heavily criticized for Fagin and had to edit Fagin's Jewishness out of later editions. The Fagin saga taken in context supports the theory the Scrooge was Jewish.
On the other hand, if Scrooge was Jewish, you basically have a metaphor where Jews are stingy and hostile and converting to Christianity makes them generous and friendly overnight. Which is pretty Antisemitic, if you're looking for that.
Many Jews in London at the time, then as now, didn't keep Kosher. Making the Jewish moneylenders non-religious Jews was actually a common trick in Victorian literature. It differentiated the "bad Jews" from the "real Jews" but let the authors present Jews with the worst possible stereotypes.
As I said, he's technically not a Jew, but practically does appear to be a Jew. Although the Christian nephew could be explained by a mixed marriage that estranged Scrooge from his relatives, it could also be Dickens' attempt to make him technically Christian.
The drawings of Scrooge in the original (again this requires a little research which I don't have time for right now) were created with Dickens' help and they are of the classic stereotype Jew.
If you read a lot of Victorian literature you will find authors dealing with Jews quite a lot, and unkind stereotypes are also quite common. It's very common to find a "good Jew" who keeps kosher and behaves quite charitably alongside a miserly, nasty stereotype. Scrooge really does seem to be one of the latter.
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
I still don't quite buy it. It's always seemed to me the story is not about someone who did not celebrate Christmas for the obvious reason that it was not his proper holiday, but someone who has lost his way and found it again.
Of course anything is possible if you deconstruct and consider the possible encoding of ideas, but I don't see much reason to do so considering that the story makes a good bit of sense without that. If there was some intention on Dickens's part to attribute jewishness to Scrooge I see no reason not to ignore it as an unfortunate cultural artifact like the casual use of the "n" word in other works that do not need it.
Of course anything is possible if you deconstruct and consider the possible encoding of ideas, but I don't see much reason to do so considering that the story makes a good bit of sense without that. If there was some intention on Dickens's part to attribute jewishness to Scrooge I see no reason not to ignore it as an unfortunate cultural artifact like the casual use of the "n" word in other works that do not need it.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Until you come up with cites for some of this, it's almost pointless to address. You're ignoring what others have written (including Dickens) and just repeating your same points.
Without actual cites, this is just historical revisionism. (Hint: Find out when Dickens edited Oliver Twist, for instance.)
Piggy
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This right here is enough to put the kibosh on the "Scrooge was a Jew" thing.
Obviously, he wasn't.
And it makes no sense to go scrounging around under the literary sofa cushions for ambiguous phrases when the non-ambiguous passages are sufficient to tell us what we need to know.
Pup
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Why does a moneylender need a warehouse? Yes, people with warehouses sell goods on credit, but that's not the usual meaning of moneylender specifically.
Really? You might want to read the thread and note the Presbyterian thing, and the larger context of changing attitudes toward Christmas celebrations in general.
I think there was enough tug of war among Christians about what was the "right" way to celebrate Christmas, if at all. They knew Jews didn't celebrate it, but that wasn't as relevant to them as the pressures within their own culture.
RobDegraves
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@ChristineR
It would help if you were actually familiar with Victorian history before making sweeping statements.
I don't know where you got this but you are wrong by a number of centuries.
Banking, as well as money lending, had not been the exclusive domain of Jews since about the 14th century with the rise of Italian banks. As early as the 13th century, Italian bankers had invented the contractum trinius, which was a clever way to avoid the ban on usury by the church. Instead of loaning money and demanding interest, they loaned money and asked for 3 different contracts for an investment, a sale and insurance. By the time of Henry VIII, the ban on usury was completely overturned.
By the Victorian period, several centuries after Henry, banking had nothing to do with Jews and everything to do with money. Even if Scrooge had been a banker, which there is no real evidence that he was, that would not have made him a Jew. Some Jews were money lenders of course, but it was hardly exclusive to them.
As far as the illustrations are concerned, I think you are seeing what you want to see. Dickens was far more concerned about poverty in England than he was about Jews. In all his writings, Dickens only has one Jew in a negative light, Fagin, and he was fairly conflicted about his character. That is not to say that Victorian England were free of prejudice against Jews, quite to the contrary, but it was not a real issue to most people, while crushing poverty, pollution and industrialism were much larger problems.
From one of Dicken's letters...
"I have no feeling towards the Jews but a friendly one. I always speak well of them, whether in public or private, and bear my testimony (as I ought to do) to their perfect good faith in such transactions as I have ever had with them..."
It would help if you were actually familiar with Victorian history before making sweeping statements.
I don't know where you got this but you are wrong by a number of centuries.
Banking, as well as money lending, had not been the exclusive domain of Jews since about the 14th century with the rise of Italian banks. As early as the 13th century, Italian bankers had invented the contractum trinius, which was a clever way to avoid the ban on usury by the church. Instead of loaning money and demanding interest, they loaned money and asked for 3 different contracts for an investment, a sale and insurance. By the time of Henry VIII, the ban on usury was completely overturned.
By the Victorian period, several centuries after Henry, banking had nothing to do with Jews and everything to do with money. Even if Scrooge had been a banker, which there is no real evidence that he was, that would not have made him a Jew. Some Jews were money lenders of course, but it was hardly exclusive to them.
As far as the illustrations are concerned, I think you are seeing what you want to see. Dickens was far more concerned about poverty in England than he was about Jews. In all his writings, Dickens only has one Jew in a negative light, Fagin, and he was fairly conflicted about his character. That is not to say that Victorian England were free of prejudice against Jews, quite to the contrary, but it was not a real issue to most people, while crushing poverty, pollution and industrialism were much larger problems.
From one of Dicken's letters...
"I have no feeling towards the Jews but a friendly one. I always speak well of them, whether in public or private, and bear my testimony (as I ought to do) to their perfect good faith in such transactions as I have ever had with them..."