Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Bingowings]

Wait, are you seriously claiming doctors, their families and children don't get vaccinations? Or that there's a statistical difference between the autism rate in the families of doctors and the rest of the population?

I believe that is what he is claiming, with the kicker that anyone who says otherwise is a liar. Welcome back, Clayton.

I'd wager that there would be a higher number of doctor's children who would be diagnosed as being autistic because, you know, doctors. Whether the actual rate differs is anyone's guess. It's worth remembering that if a doctor tells you their kid is autistic, they're probably lying anyway.

 

[Mudcat]

Whether the actual rate differs is anyone's guess.

I would bet gil to dollars that it doesn't differ significantly.

 

[Reality Check]

Clayton Moore: What is your evidence that this paper is "fabricated propaganda"?

Likely fabricated propaganda.

Clayton Moore
What is your evidence that this paper is "fabricated propaganda"?
Who faked it?
Who published it as propaganda (CNN?, Fox?, the dreaded Big Pharma )?
First asked 17 September 2013. 0 days and counting.

The facts are that
How do physicians immunize their own children? Differences among pediatricians and nonpediatricians.
Is a survey of real doctors

CONCLUSIONS:
Ninety-three percent of the surveyed physicians agree with the current official vaccination recommendations and would apply them to their own children. ...

Published in a scientific journal: Pediatrics. 2005 Nov;116(5):e623-33.

So your comment is obviously wrong - let us see if you can be polite enough to acknowledge this. It would be a rather silly statement to add to Clayton Moore's 25 statements and 196 days of ignorance and delusion.

 

[Bingowings]

I would bet gil to dollars that it doesn't differ significantly.

I agree with you based purely on instinct but the evidence for such a claim cannot, by its very nature, exist. How many undiagnosed autistic people are there in the world?

A 2010 study was interpreted by the popular press as 'US college graduates are more likely to have autistic kids' but it says, right there in the abstract, that this is probably due to a higher reporting rate amongst college graduates because they could more afford to visit a doctor than their non-graduate cohorts. I wonder if a similar study has been done in countries with systems which are free or cheap at the point of access.

The argument as I see it: "The more study is done on a particular condition, the more the condition reveals itself, therefore people who study it cause that condition and additionally they turned me into a newt."

 

[dafydd]

Baloney.

1 more is more. Plus isn't the reason most children don't get vaccinations is because they are too sickly?

What? Do you read what you type before you post?

 

[Belz...]

Baloney.

1 more is more. Plus isn't the reason most children don't get vaccinations is because they are too sickly?

Assuming your nonsense is actually true, how many people would die, in your opinion, of preventable diseases if we stopped vaccines entirely ? Or if you're not advocating that, what are you asking for ?

Can I expect an answer anytime soon, or do you concede that vaccines save more lives than they take ? No games or dodges, Clayton. Answer the question.

 

[ArmillarySphere]

I was a sickly child, and my parents are both physicians. Somehow, this didn't prevent them from giving me the MMR shots on schedule. I'm currently looking to get my Tdap booster shots as well, since this forum informed me that it has likely worn off, and I'm looking to becoming a father soon. Not sure if there are any other shots that might be helpful - suggestions?

 

[Bingowings]

Can I expect an answer anytime soon, or do you concede that vaccines save more lives than they take ? No games or dodges, Clayton. Answer the question.

No and no.

Likely fabricated propaganda.

 

[Mudcat]

How many undiagnosed autistic people are there in the world?

Considering a lot of the world is still undeveloped and have inadequate health care, I would imagine that number is quite high. But those with autism would less likely survive into adulthood I would wager.

 

[Bingowings]

Considering a lot of the world is still undeveloped and have inadequate health care, I would imagine that number is quite high. But those with autism would less likely survive into adulthood I would wager.

I was told this discussion was limited to U.S. studies only. </chandlerface>

Chandler : Yeah, I'm trying to bring that in again? Remember chandlerface?
Joey : Like it ever went away! *gives friendly backslap to Chandler* Fußball!
Chandler : It was the 90s. Let it go!

 

[Reality Check]

1 more is more. Plus isn't the reason most children don't get vaccinations is because they are too sickly?

Clayton Moore, read the article at least once before you cite it or try commenting on it.
There is no "1 more" in that article. There are upcoming combination vaccinations that combine 2, 3, 4 or even 5 vaccinations into one vaccination. There are at least 1 less vaccinations. At least 1 less is less.

The reason that many children do not get vaccinated is the parents choice not to vaccinate. That could be religious. It could be cultural. It could be misinformation from some of those paranoid ant-vaxer web sites out there.

The reason that a few children do not get vaccinated is because they have a condition that would make it dangerous, i.e. your "sickly". Of course if the child is already "sickly" with the disease being vaccinated against, it may not be appropriate to vaccinate them (need a doctor to chime in here though).

If a child is "sickly" then vaccination against diseases that would make them more "sickly" may be recommended.

 

[mikado]

Clayton, one of your many problems is that you simply refuse to listen to evidence that others may have, or personal experiences, that don't fit your particular worldview... surely even you can see is that it's a little limiting??

 

[ehcks]

Of course if the child is already "sickly" with the disease being vaccinated against, it may not be appropriate to vaccinate them (need a doctor to chime in here though).

Well, I do know that you usually only give the rabies vaccine to people who have recently been bitten.

 

[Dcdrac]

What we do know is vaccines work and generally safely is no fairy tale, it is hard scientific fact backed up by mountains of evidence over the 2 centuries or more of use.

we also know that the anti vaxxers have no credible hard scientific evidence for their claims.

 

[Clayton Moore]

What we do know is vaccines work and generally safely is no fairy tale, it is hard scientific fact backed up by mountains of evidence over the 2 centuries or more of use.

we also know that the anti vaxxers have no credible hard scientific evidence for their claims.

The point has never been against the vaccine concept. The point is that modern vaccines are laced with erratically acting adjuvants. Piling on the number of required and recommended vaccines accelerates the chances of negative side effects.

Bottom line is that the human body has not evolved to process the onslaught of adjuvants.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886
Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: are they safe?
Tomljenovic L, Shaw CA.
Source

Neural Dynamics Research Group, Department of Ophthalmology and Visual Sciences, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC, V5Z 1L8, Canada. [email protected]
Abstract

Aluminum is an experimentally demonstrated neurotoxin and the most commonly used vaccine adjuvant. Despite almost 90 years of widespread use of aluminum adjuvants, medical science's understanding about their mechanisms of action is still remarkably poor. There is also a concerning scarcity of data on toxicology and pharmacokinetics of these compounds. In spite of this, the notion that aluminum in vaccines is safe appears to be widely accepted. Experimental research, however, clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and scientific community. We hope that the present paper will provide a framework for a much needed and long overdue assessment of this highly contentious medical issue.

 

[dafydd]

adjuvants.

You've learned a new word!

 

[Clayton Moore]

You've learned a new word!

11th August 2012, 05:51 AM

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8528688&postcount=1681

 

[Reality Check]

The point is that modern vaccines are laced with erratically acting adjuvants.

The actual point is that you keep on regurgitating what looks like the fantasies of anti-vaxer web sites without trying to look for evidence to support their assertions, Clayton Moore.
There are no "erratically acting adjuvants" in vaccines. The adjuvants in vaccines act exactly as they should when they were added. They act to increase the effectiveness of the vaccine.

The bottom line is that adjuvants in vaccines have been shown to be safe. And you have cited no credible papers to support your various statements about adjuvants in
Clayton Moore's 25 statements and 196 days of ignorance and delusion.

21. The delusion that there are mysterious "additives" in vaccines that harm children.
Clayton Moore, Please supply a list of the current additives to vaccines that have been shown to harm children.
Or is this just another of the paranoid, ignorant delusions that you have been infected by xtongue) from the crazy web sites that you get your information from?
First asked 2 July 2013 - 76 days and counting.

Piling on the number of required and recommended vaccines accelerates the chances of negative side effects.

Wow you get something right, Clayton Moore !
You know that application of any drug (like aspirin) has undesirable side-effects.
You know that taking more of any drug with side-effects increases the chances of negative side effects.

Bottom line is that the human body has not evolved to process the onslaught of adjuvants.

The bottom line is that statement is quite ignorant, Clayton Moore.
The human body has evolved to withstand the adjuvants used in vaccines because they occur in nature. For example, aluminum compounds occur naturally in many foods.
The amount of adjuvants in vaccines is smaller than the environmental load. They have been shown to be safe by decades of use.
Frequently Asked Questions about Adjuvants

The adjuvant aluminum is present in U.S. childhood vaccines that prevent hepatitis A, hepatitis B, diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTaP, Tdap) Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib), human papillomavirus (HPV) and pneumococcus infection. This adjuvant has been used safely in vaccines for decades.

There are problems with the Tomljenovic L, Shaw CA papers.
Firstly they work in the Department of Ophthalmology and Visual Sciences, University of British Columbia. They are not vaccine experts.
Do aluminum vaccine adjuvants contribute to the rising prevalence of autism?
Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: are they safe?
The Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety, report of meeting held 6-7 June 2012 commented on these papers:

The GACVS reviewed 2 published papers alleging that aluminium in vaccines is associated with autism spectrum disorders3, 4 and the evidence generated from quantitative risk assessment by a US FDA pharmacokinetic model of aluminium-containing vaccines.
GACVS considers that these 2 studies3, 4 are seriously flawed. The core argument made in these studies is based on ecological comparisons of aluminium content in vaccines and rates of autism spectrum disorders in several countries. In general, ecological studies cannot be used to assert a causal association because they do not link exposure to outcome in individuals, and only make correlations of exposure and outcomes on population averages. Therefore their value is primarily for hypothesis generation. However, there are additional concerns with those studies that limit any potential value for hypothesis generation. These include: incorrect assumptions about known associations of aluminium with neurological disease, uncertainty of the accuracy of the autism spectrum disorder prevalence rates in different countries, and accuracy of vaccination schedules and resulting calculations of aluminium doses in different countries.

 

[Belz...]

The point has never been against the vaccine concept. The point is that modern vaccines are laced with erratically acting adjuvants.

That sounds remarkably more restrained than your previous comments on the matter.

 

[Clayton Moore]

That sounds remarkably more restrained than your previous comments on the matter.

Sometimes you have to dumb down to the level of your audience.


Adjuvants go way beyond the 200 year old vaccine concept.

Antivax is obviously anti-adjuvants.