Understanding the Liberal Mindset

[dudalb]

I hate mindsets, period, of any kind.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Labels can be useful as shorthand for complex ideas.
It is always a fallacy to reduce any person or group to a single word.

 

[dann]

Of whose list? What criteria did they use? Are they honest?

I don't know if Trading Economics makes the list itself.

Trading Economics – Bias and Credibility (Media Bias / Fact Check)
Overall, we rate Trading Economics as Least Biased based on not reporting on politics and minimal editorializing of content. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact-check record.

 

[dann]

Could you support that claim with evidence? Not just propaganda claims from anti-communist agencies.

Not sure how many countries are communist, but Cuba doesn't appear the most corrupt, and North Korea does even appear.

Corruption Rank by Country

The Corruption Perceptions Index Rank (CPI Ranking) is published annually by Transparency International, a non-governmental organisation. A country or territory's rank indicates its position relative to the other countries and territories in the index.

tradingeconomics.com

ETA I was surprised that denmark was top the corruption list.

Why did it surprise you? The Nordics are all up there.
I am surprised that the USA hasn't sunk lower than it has – and that it has only gone from #28 to #29 in the new list.

I'll add that when the Nordics top the list, it must be really, really bad in the rest of the world.
Like acbytesla, I wonder about the criteria. For instance, doesn't it count as corruption when COVID-19 minimizing health professionals received handsome rewards and honors in the years after the outbreak? In Sweden, it was the infamous Anders Tegnell, the poster boy for herd immunity by infection. In Denmark, it was the far less known Lone Simonsen, who preached "vaccination + infection = super immunity."
I think examples like these may not have appeared on the radar of whoever creates the list.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

it's based on 2024/25 data

 

[steenkh]

For instance, doesn't it count as corruption when COVID-19 minimizing health professionals received handsome rewards and honors in the years after the outbreak? In Sweden, it was the infamous Anders Tegnell, the poster boy for herd immunity by infection. In Denmark, it was the far less known Lone Simonsen, who preached "vaccination + infection = super immunity."

I don't think it is corruption just because these persons are rewarded for something I disagree with. Corruption would be if they did their work because they would get extraordinary rewarded for it.

 

[dann]

But it's hard to tell if that were the case, isn't it?
What we do know is that 'think tanks' like Danish CEPOS were spreading anti-restriction propaganda.
And in the USA, there are stories like this:
The call came from within the House! The White House!!!

There's even the Danish-American anti-vaxxer connection, which stinks to high heaven!
A Danish Couple’s Maverick African Research Finds Its Moment in RFK Jr.’s Vaccine Policy (KFF Health News, May 18, 2026)

 

[dann]

it's based on 2024/25 data

So pre-slush fund, but still post-'24 presidential election.
Elon Musk spent more than $290 million on the 2024 election, year-end FEC filings show (CNN, Feb 1, 2025)

 

[dann]

I hate mindsets, period, of any kind.

I don't believe you.
Many of your posts are nothing but presentations of your fixed mindset, bereft of any reference to reality and unaffected by facts. Perfect examples of the conservative mindset.

 

[Susheel]

I hate mindsets, period, of any kind.

 

[Stout]

ETA I was surprised that denmark was top the corruption list.

The chart, as presented is "upside down". Denmark is the least corrupt.

Trading Economics got their data from here

The actual ranking is pretty much what you'd expect.

 

[Emily's Cat]

When the fish getting bigger you need to buy a bigger tank.
The existence of mega corporations and billionaires necessitates a Big State.

If you want less government you should want less excessive wealth - otherwise you are just a clueless libertarian

Why do you think that the existence of large companies and wealthy individuals requires more government employees? How many individuals do you think are needed to tax each of them?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Seriously, can you read? I didn't assert your position was something it wasn't. That would be a strawman. I asserted your position was wrong.

I pointed out that corruption is not dependent on the economic system. I provided multiple examples of right wing governments that are also rampant with corruption. I asserted you're wong that Communism or Socialism in itself leads to corruption. This is what makes it a counterpoint.

Misses the point.

Nonsense. Why is that you keep saying I'm making fallacies? Especially when you don't know what they are.

I said that every single instance of communism ever tried has led to rampant corruption.

You replied "Well some right wing governments have corruption too".

That's not a counter to my claim, it doesn't even address my claim. You further fallaciously tapdanced away by saying my claim is wrong, and then proceeding to replace my claim with something similar but different - that communism leads to corruption. I suppose it's hypothetically possible that in a small enough country full of perfectly well-behaved individuals in which absolutely nobody would ever engage in freeloading or exploitation a communist structure could avoid corruption... but none of those have been observed. I didn't claim that it inevitably leads to corruption - I claimed that they have all been observably corrupt.

You pointing out that some non-communist governments are also corrupt is neither here nor there. It doesn't counter my assertion one bit. To counter my assertion all you need to is to provide an example of an established communist government that has a level of corruption on par with a mixed capitalist government. So go ahead and do that.

In the mean time, I will simply say that every sunflower I've ever seen has been yellow. Please feel free to tell my how I'm wrong because buttercups are also yellow.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Could you support that claim with evidence? Not just propaganda claims from anti-communist agencies.

Not sure how many countries are communist, but Cuba doesn't appear the most corrupt, and North Korea does even appear.

Corruption Rank by Country

The Corruption Perceptions Index Rank (CPI Ranking) is published annually by Transparency International, a non-governmental organisation. A country or territory's rank indicates its position relative to the other countries and territories in the index.

tradingeconomics.com

ETA I was surprised that denmark was top the corruption list.

North Korea is in the worst 10 for corruption on your list.

As for Cuba...

Corruption in Cuba - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[arthwollipot]

I hate mindsets, period, of any kind.

Everyone has one. Including you.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Why do you think that the existence of large companies and wealthy individuals requires more government employees? How many individuals do you think are needed to tax each of them?

And what if they just don't pay? Pollute? Mistreat their employees?
How are you going to enforce against a corporation with more money and manpower than the Stats?

 

[acbytesla]

I said that every single instance of communism ever tried has led to rampant corruption.

There HAS NEVER BEEN a truly communist country. All were authoritarian governments that sold themselves as communist. Corruption was inherent in these countries before they were communst.

You replied "Well some right wing governments have corruption too".

That's not a counter to my claim, it doesn't even address my claim.

Yes it does. It points out that corruption is rampant in other economies. Correlation is not causation.

You further fallaciously tapdanced away by saying my claim is wrong, and then proceeding to replace my claim with something similar but different - that communism leads to corruption. I suppose it's hypothetically possible that in a small enough country full of perfectly well-behaved individuals in which absolutely nobody would ever engage in freeloading or exploitation a communist structure could avoid corruption... but none of those have been observed. I didn't claim that it inevitably leads to corruption - I claimed that they have all been observably corrupt.

Do you know what a fallacy is? A fallacy in many ways has little to do with someone is wrong or right. One can make a fallacious statement and be right. Only that their arguments structure doesn't work. By the way, your whole argument is an example of the black swan fallacy.

You pointing out that some non-communist governments are also corrupt is neither here nor there. It doesn't counter my assertion one bit. To counter my assertion all you need to is to provide an example of an established communist government that has a level of corruption on par with a mixed capitalist government. So go ahead and do that.

Of course it is. That so called communist governments may or may not be rampant with corruption does not mean one is actually related to the other.

In the mean time, I will simply say that every sunflower I've ever seen has been yellow. Please feel free to tell my how I'm wrong because buttercups are also yellow.

You haven't been around. Neither sunflowers or buttercups are necessarily yellow. Sunflowers in particular are famous for blooming in orange and bright red. Buttercups in pink and white. Their colors like corruption in countries is not related to their labels.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Understanding the far-right mindset.

Far-righters (or trumpkins) consider themselves as the bastions of Social Justice. They claim to believe in each individual's right to an autonomous, self-directed life, free from restrictions. They claim to believe in freedom of speech, arguing that is it an important part of challenging existing ideas and finding truth. The far-righters have an absoluteness about their mindset. They are utterly convinced they are always the good guys, that they are the final arbiter of right and wrong, and that anyone who doesn't think the way they do are the bad guys. They are also utterly convinced that they, and only they, know what's best for society. They operate on the basis of the "victim v oppressor framework" which views social dynamics via a sort of "binary" consisting of the powerful groups (the Washington elites) versus the marginalized groups (the ordinary common folk). In the far-right world, everyone but them is either one or the other - everyone is either a Good American screwed over by the system or a member of an out-of-touch political elite, and the far-righters and their orange Messiah are here to equalize everyone and make everything all right. They are fantasists, the ultimate expression of idealism. These are indeed lofty ideals, but sadly, the reality of the far-right mindset is somewhat different from their stated ideals.

Their claim to believe in each individual's rights falls flat when it comes to any right that doesn't comport their mindset (like gay rights, abortion, the freedom to read perfectly ordinary books in school libraries, or due process for brown people).
Their claim to believe in free speech only applies to speech they like. Speech they don't like must be restricted, and its speaker punished, preferrably by being beaten up by cops or sent to a concentration camp by ICE.

There is nothing that demonstrates how the far-right mindset works (and exposes its deep flaws) better than their relationship with Israel and the Palestinian Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank.

(Far-right cultists will dutifully obey their echo-chambers and dismiss opponents as woke far-left communist snowflake anti-American virtue signaling beta groomer NPCs who should just leave America already if they hate it so much without ever reading anything they have written or hearing anything they have to say)

Oh, and every accusation from them is a confession .

 

[acbytesla]

Understanding the far-right mindset.

Far-righters (or trumpkins) consider themselves as the bastions of Social Justice. They claim to believe in each individual's right to an autonomous, self-directed life, free from restrictions. They claim to believe in freedom of speech, arguing that is it an important part of challenging existing ideas and finding truth. The far-righters have an absoluteness about their mindset. They are utterly convinced they are always the good guys, that they are the final arbiter of right and wrong, and that anyone who doesn't think the way they do are the bad guys. They are also utterly convinced that they, and only they, know what's best for society. They operate on the basis of the "victim v oppressor framework" which views social dynamics via a sort of "binary" consisting of the powerful groups (the Washington elites) versus the marginalized groups (the ordinary common folk). In the far-right world, everyone but them is either one or the other - everyone is either a Good American screwed over by the system or a member of an out-of-touch political elite, and the far-righters and their orange Messiah are here to equalize everyone and make everything all right. They are fantasists, the ultimate expression of idealism. These are indeed lofty ideals, but sadly, the reality of the far-right mindset is somewhat different from their stated ideals.

Their claim to believe in each individual's rights falls flat when it comes to any right that doesn't comport their mindset (like gay rights, abortion, the freedom to read perfectly ordinary books in school libraries, or due process for brown people).
Their claim to believe in free speech only applies to speech they like. Speech they don't like must be restricted, and its speaker punished, preferrably by being beaten up by cops or sent to a concentration camp by ICE.

There is nothing that demonstrates how the far-right mindset works (and exposes its deep flaws) better than their relationship with Israel and the Palestinian Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank.

(Far-right cultists will dutifully obey their echo-chambers and dismiss opponents as woke far-left communist snowflake anti-American virtue signaling beta groomer NPCs who should just leave America already if they hate it so much without ever reading anything they have written or hearing anything they have to say)

Oh, and every accusation from them is a confession .

You may have meant this for the other thread. Not that it bothers me

Not sure I agree with this. And nothing about Trump is really far right. He is a proponent of crony capitalism. In that if it aids him and his, it's good and if it doesn't, it's bad. It's ALL about HIM. That is his only principle.

 

[acbytesla]

Every single capitalist country I'm aware of is corrupt. And if every communist country is corrupt and every capitalist country is corrupt, then corruption is not necessarily dependent on their economic structure? Or are you saying they are?