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Understanding the Liberal Mindset

Emily's Cat said:
I mean... there's also the rather stark observation that over the last 100 years or so, the leftiest left-wing nations have been absolutely full to the brim of corruption and cronyism. There isn't a single country out there that has tried communism, or even communist-adjacent-heavy-socialism that hasn't ended up with a substantial amount of corruption. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others...
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This isn't true at all. The Third Reich was insanely corrupt. So was Italy under Mussolini, Spain under Franco, Chile under Pinochet, Belarus under Lukachenko and now the US under Trump. Not to mention many other governments too numerous to list.

Corruption is not more prevalent under left wing governments than it is under right wing governments. The problem lays strictly with authoritarian governments that lack checks and balances against corruption.
 
acbytesla said:
This isn't true at all. The Third Reich was insanely corrupt. So was Italy under Mussolini, Spain under Franco, Chile under Pinochet, Belarus under Lukachenko and now the US under Trump. Not to mention many other governments too numerous to list.

Corruption is not more prevalent under left wing governments than it is under right wing governments. The problem lays strictly with authoritarian governments that lack checks and balances against corruption.
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Any government made up of people will have corruption; that's just what people do. Best to keep government small, with minimal tax, and out of our lives.
 
Trausti said:
Any government made up of people will have corruption; that's just what people do. Best to keep government small, with minimal tax, and out of our lives.
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I agree with the first sentence.

But governments need to be sized accordingly with the population of their respective nation. The idea that a smaller government is better is simply not supported by the evidence. I'm in favor of reducing the size of the military and the number of police officers. But the IRS is too small and needs to have the number of enforcement officers tripled. Recent cutting of services by the DOGE has been a disaster.
 
acbytesla said:
I agree with the first sentence.

But governments need to be sized accordingly with the population of their respective nation. The idea that a smaller government is better is simply not supported by the evidence. I'm in favor of reducing the size of the military and the number of police officers. But the IRS is too small and needs to have the number of enforcement officers tripled. Recent cutting of services by the DOGE has been a disaster.
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The more money the bureaucrats take from the people, the more excuses the bureaucrats will have for spending that money and needing more. See California.
 
It so easy to make promises for votes when other people have to pay the bill!

California’s state and local pension plans have over $265 billion in debt

As it stands, California’s state and local governments have the most public pension debt in the country, with total unfunded pension liabilities of more than $265 billion, according to a new report from the Reason Foundation. That’s over $6,000 in pension debt for every state resident. CalPERS has $166 billion in debt, and CalSTRS has $39 billion in unfunded liabilities.

Since pension benefits promised to government workers are constitutionally protected, taxpayers are on the hook for that debt. In the years ahead, paying this pension debt will consume an ever-larger portion of state and local budgets.
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acbytesla said:
That's why they need the taxes. You're reasoning is a perfect example of post hoc, propter hoc. It is fallacious reasoning.
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Are you insane? They keep raising the taxes and getting worse results. Are people allowed to keep any of their own money, or are we all doomed to be slaves to the bureaucrats? And why is Florida able to get away with low taxes and get good results?
 
It's also interesting that California is a huge donor state. Contributing far more in taxes to the federal government than it receives back in services.

They must be doing something right.
 
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Trausti said:
These 14 companies have left California over the years

Toyota joins list of companies that moved HQ operations out of CA

When these companies leave, they take the jobs and taxes with them.
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Your argument seems to be that companies will tend to move to states (and countries) where less is done for the environment, social services, etc., and therefore states and countries should do less for the environment, social services etc. in order to keep the companies from moving.

Got it.
 
steenkh said:
Your argument seems to be that companies will tend to move to states (and countries) where less is done for the environment, social services, etc., and therefore states and countries should do less for the environment, social services etc. in order to keep the companies from moving.

Got it.
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My argument is that those places that allow for free enterprise with low regulations and taxes will be more prosperous than those with heavy regulation and taxation. I simply don't understand the liberal mindset that government bureaucrats who produce nothing should be enriched on backs of those who do. Again, if high taxes lead to utopia, why are people leaving the highest tax states?

California leads nation in outbound migration in U-Haul 2025 report
Over a quarter million people moved to Texas in the last year.
 
Trausti said:
My argument is that those places that allow for free enterprise with low regulations and taxes will be more prosperous than those with heavy regulation and taxation.
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Prosperous for who?

In Denmark we have taxation of about 30%, and sometimes more, and yet, Denmark is a prosperous country with relatively fewer poor people than the U.S.
 
pure logic tells any thinking person that as power gets concentrated, corruption increases - it's unavoidable.
That's why power needs to be as distributed as possible, with checks & balances & transparency to keep the total volume of corruption small.
 
steenkh said:
Prosperous for who?

In Denmark we have taxation of about 30%, and sometimes more, and yet, Denmark is a prosperous country with relatively fewer poor people than the U.S.
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The US has a higher average income than Denmark. We also have air conditioning. Add to that, the US subsidizes Denmark's defense and healthcare costs.
 
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