Understanding homeopathy

[Carn]

As I understand it, both factors are important, but as I have been taught (wanton appeal to authority!) the simple effect of getting rid of the excess heat was of long overlooked importance while the more complex benefits of cooling were being considered.

I guess the problem is that you have to formulate a simple treating advice anybody can follow.
The positive effects of removing excess heat will only be present shortly after the burn occurs, but how long this "shortly" is, is dependant upon the exact burn location and the temperature and i don't know what. E.g. if someone is pieced by a hot piece of iron, then, without any cooling the temperature height inside the wound could be for 15+ minutes too high, then the cooling effect will be more important and longer useful, than with a skin burn, where air convection does most of the job in a few minutes at most.

Therefore i guess the optimal temperature of water for treating would be a complex formula, starting with 0 or even less degree celsius the moment after burn occured, quickly rising to something like 10-15 degrees in the following minute and then slowly rising in the following hours or even days up to 20-30 degrees(which afaik can also be done with cremes).

The rule "cold, but not icy water" is the best approximation of that, that one can expect to stick to in emergency situation.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

The rule "cold, but not icy water" is the best approximation of that, that one can expect to stick to in emergency situation.

Unless you are a homeopath or an Indian chef.

 

[Kumar]

If effect is just by cooling, will exposing burned hand to A.C. or refrigerator air can help? These may cool better still much less cooler than ice.

 

[PixyMisa]

If effect is just by cooling, will exposing burned hand to A.C. or refrigerator air can help?

They will help - anything cold will help. But air is less effective at carrying away heat than water. Which you would know if you ever read any of the web pages you link to.

 

[Kumar]

Whether burns are one kind of 'inflamation'-relaxation of BVs at/near burn point? Will distilled water effect equally effective on burns?

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Whether burns are one kind of 'inflamation'-relaxation of BVs at/near burn point? Will distilled water effect equally effective on burns?

Read the links Kumar! You will find the current state of knowledge as to the particular choice of coolants and discover that rapid cooling is the main property required. You could read some of the links to discover the differences in specific heat and other physical properties of DW vs saline. You could then pose a sensible question having gained some insight into the likely size (Hint: close to nothing at all) of any differential in effect between saline and DW or tap water.

But, heck, what are the chances of you doing that?

 

[Kumar]

By DW, I think you mean to say drinking or tap water not Distilled water(both are as DW). I just want to understand that if elements/minerals present in tap water can have some role for this purpose? I have asked about 'persistance of heat on burns site'. What can be science of cooling by water to burns? Does it help to treat inflamation caused after ist degree of burns?

 

[anor277]

Originally posted by Kumar

By DW, I think you mean to say drinking or tap water not Distilled water(both are as DW). I just want to understand that if elements/minerals present in tap water can have some role for this purpose? I have asked about 'persistance of heat on burns site'. What can be science of cooling by water to burns? Does it help to treat inflamation caused after ist degree of burns?

The answer to your question is contained in the answers to the following questions, "What is the concentration of water?" and "How does the concentration differ with respect to distilled water and tap water?".

 

[Chris Haynes]

This is exactly why I refuse to discuss the specific heat of water (and now especially versus air) with Kumar. He had a good link... which he did NOT read!

He has been sent links and recommendations on basic physics and chemistry, but has so far not demonstrated anything beyond showing links to the articles.

Go into a used bookstore (a store that sells used books) and pick up a basic physics book. Read it, and try to understand it.

 

[PixyMisa]

By DW, I think you mean to say drinking or tap water not Distilled water(both are as DW). I just want to understand that if elements/minerals present in tap water can have some role for this purpose?

No.

 

[BillyJoe]

Yes.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Where has Murthy gone? You put your homeopath down and walk out of the room for 5 minutes and when you come back he's disappeared. It really is a bloody nuisance. I've looked behind the furniture and he's not there.

Look, has one of you lot taken him?

I'm going to shut my eyes and if the thief wants to return him quietly, there will be no more said about it. OK?


I suppose there is another possibility. But, surely he couldn't have run away when the going got tough.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Oh, it's all right I found him. I turned over a stone at Hpathy and there he was-

Hiding here.

It's quite a fun thread. Always interesting to see what they write when they forget who might be watching.

This is from Dr MAS, one of the regulars there;

"So homeopathy is full of fraud like that, if you have money, you can become high standard homeopaths, if you could write some book you can call yourself scholar of homeopathy without knowing that what is the difference between remedy, medicine and drug? Believe me, everybody will quote you without actually knowing that what is right and what is wrong because homeopaths do not believe in practical observations. They supposed to follow what is written, they do not bother what they are observing. They always made mind before doing something and write observations according to their pre-planned thoughts."

Very germane to the topic of this thread: "Understanding Homeopathy" i.e. tell us how the fraud works. Sadly Murthy hasn't offered a useful comment.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

While we're at it, is "Evie" someone from here?

http://www.hpathy.com/homeopathy/forum_posts.asp?TID=2810&PN=1

or is she just a gullible twerp handing over her safety to an anti-vacc loon?

 

[Kumar]

"The differance between 'crude' & 'potentized' durgs/remedies can just be that 'crudes' can owerpower the body whereas body can owerpower the potentised remedies. So, it is the 'body type' which can decide the action of remedies as opposite to 'crude' durgs. All the theories, symptoms etc. as mentioned in homeopathic litretures/referances are/can be just indications. Rest 'skill' of prescriber' has to decide it. High potencies 'just awakens' & bring 'body into action'--rest depends on body & on its type. Eg; in a race of specific age group children, whistling & initiating children to run is alike 'remedy action;, distance covered by differnt children differantly is alike individual action of remedies AND making children to run, min. max speed,distance, max distance fixed etc. can be alike 'homeopathic indications'. The systems in which individuality is suggested can't be a 'fraud' on ground of 'differances in actions/effects' & Indiviuality is indicated & suggested in homeopathic system."

I think you have not consdered above mentioning.

 

[Ashles]

"The differance between 'crude' & 'potentized' durgs/remedies can just be that 'crudes' can owerpower the body whereas body can owerpower the potentised remedies. So, it is the 'body type' which can decide the action of remedies as opposite to 'crude' durgs. All the theories, symptoms etc. as mentioned in homeopathic litretures/referances are/can be just indications. Rest 'skill' of prescriber' has to decide it. High potencies 'just awakens' & bring 'body into action'--rest depends on body & on its type. Eg; in a race of specific age group children, whistling & initiating children to run is alike 'remedy action;, distance covered by differnt children differantly is alike individual action of remedies AND making children to run, min. max speed,distance, max distance fixed etc. can be alike 'homeopathic indications'. The systems in which individuality is suggested can't be a 'fraud' on ground of 'differances in actions/effects' & Indiviuality is indicated & suggested in homeopathic system."

I think you have not consdered above mentioning.

Fascinating Kumar. Absolutely fascinating.

And now some evidence that any of that nonsense actually works in the real world?

Or would you like to hear my rambling desciption of how invisible fairies of different types can cure certain illnesses at certain times in certain circumstances.

So many explanations... so many exciting stories about body types, potentations, remedies...

Yet in every actual test homeopathy fails. How strange.

If it is so erratic that you can't tell what homeopathic remedy will heal people, and that it won't work on incurable conditions, what use is homeopathy at all?

What a waste of a life.

 

[patnray]

I never said' use warm water'. I said keep your hand near a hot source/object.

You didn't comment on 'the changing theories and the evidences ' of your noble 'modern medicine.'

When Ice was used,obviously you people had evidence that it worked.

When plain water is suggested, then obviously agian, you people had evidence that ice is bad.

So, what is the standard of your so called 'evidence'?

What prevents you people to declare again tomorrow that warm water will be better, to heal burns?

Murthy

You fail to understand that, while the treatment method has changed slightly, the underlying theory has not: the goal is to remove heat from the burned tissue as rapidly as possible. Ice does this quite effectively. However, it was found that prolonged use of ice could damage tissue from freezing, so the treatment was changed to cold water. This is as effective at removing heat without causing additional damage. But the treatment theory has not changed: it is still remove heat from the affected tisue as rapidly as safely possible.

Warm water would be less effective than cold water at removing heat rapidly. Thus there would be no reason to shift to using warm water unless it was proven that removing heat from the affected tissue was not the best therapy.

The shift from ice to cold water was because of a side effect of using ice, not because of a change in the treatment theory. There is no evidence that the basic theory is unsound. None. Thus there is no reason to suspect that warm water will become the prefered treatment. And even if you could prove that removing heat as rapidly as possible is not the best therapy, it does not automatically follow that cold water would be replaced by warm water as a recommended treatment. If you could disprove the cooling theory there would be no reason to use water at all, warm or cold.

Your argument has no merit.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Another study!

http://www.ssr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:mss:96224:200502:ijahdpkbmolmgpjcflnb

In this study there was no effect over placebo for self treatment with one of three self selected, ultramolecular homeopathic medicines in preventing childhood URTI.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

I told my husband, MacGeezer, about the homeopathic treatment for burns Gavinimurthy recommended. Tonight, he had to opportunity to test it himself. Forgetting briefly that hot metal looks just like cold metal, he burned (just slightly) his hand as he was cooking dinner on the gas BBQ. So he placed the burned hand back over the heat. Guess what? That made it hurt more!! Even more astounding, cold running water from the tap made it feel better. Science is fun!

 

[Barbrae]

Re: Another study!

http://www.ssr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:mss:96224:200502:ijahdpkbmolmgpjcflnb

Oh, you forgot to quote this little part

"Conclusions
In this study there was no effect over placebo for self treatment with one of
three self selected, ultramolecular homeopathic medicines in preventing childhood URTI.
This can be due to the lack of effect of the highly diluted homeopathic medicines or
the process of selection and type of medicines."

What was that last line again? Oh "or
the process of selection and type of medicines"