Understanding homeopathy

[Gavinimurthy]

India is a huge country with a population of 12,000,000,000.

There are wide disparities in progress from region to region.That is why the overall statistics seem so poor.

The British, who ruled this country, for more than 200 years, did nothing towards improving the health of the people here.
We got independence in 1947, and if you compare the figures from then to now,we are much better.

The progress achieved in the 50 odd years after independence, is not a mean achievement.We will definitely reach and excel western standards in another 50 years.

So,don't worry about us in India.

Worry about your childern, who are getting drugged, who feel utterly lonely, uncared for, and undergo all sorts of depressions.

Worry about your childern one out of every ten, born with eczema,which makes their life horrible, despite your steroids.

Worry about your increasing cases of ADD,ADHD,Schrizophenia, and mental depression.

Start thinking why your quality of life is deteiorating so fast? If you live a little longer than us,with a crippled mental and physical attitude, how does it help you?

Murthy

 

[MRC_Hans]

India is a huge country with a population of 12,000,000,000.

There are wide disparities in progress from region to region.That is why the overall statistics seem so poor.

OK, so can you point out regions where the statistics are better and where there is heavy relience on homeopathy?

The British, who ruled this country, for more than 200 years, did nothing towards improving the health of the people here.
We got independence in 1947, and if you compare the figures from then to now,we are much better.

That does not explain why you are behind some African countries which had independence several decades later.

The progress achieved in the 50 odd years after independence, is not a mean achievement.We will definitely reach and excel western standards in another 50 years.

Can you document that this is due to homeopathy?

So,don't worry about us in India.

OK. But you should.

Worry about your childern, who are getting drugged, who feel utterly lonely, uncared for, and undergo all sorts of depressions.

Irrelevant. We are discussing homeopathy.

Worry about your childern one out of every ten, born with eczema,which makes their life horrible, despite your steroids.

Irrelevant. -And grossly exaggarated.

Worry about your increasing cases of ADD,ADHD,Schrizophenia, and mental depression.

Irrelevant.

Start thinking why your quality of life is deteiorating so fast? If you live a little longer than us,with a crippled mental and physical attitude, how does it help you?

Ahh, we're back to "at least it is harmless".

Murthy

Murthy, how do you feel you are doing right now? Debate-wise, I mean .

Hans

 

[Carn]

The British, who ruled this country, for more than 200 years, did nothing towards improving the health of the people here.

Murthy

Imperialism was a bad idea, but care to prove that statement?

So the British did not:

-build any infrastructure, especially some sanitation infrastructure

-did not found any training facilities for any academic skill

-did not try to stop any epedemics running around

If they did anything of the above, then they did something towards the health of poeple in india. Though i guess, they did it for other reasons, than health of people, still, your "nothing" above is wrong.

Do you have data for health in india before british appearance?

If not, you cannot prove anything.

Carn

 

[Ashles]

India is a huge country with a population of 12,000,000,000.

There are wide disparities in progress from region to region.That is why the overall statistics seem so poor.

The British, who ruled this country, for more than 200 years, did nothing towards improving the health of the people here.
We got independence in 1947, and if you compare the figures from then to now,we are much better.

The progress achieved in the 50 odd years after independence, is not a mean achievement.We will definitely reach and excel western standards in another 50 years.

Well can we compare the figures? Can you provide some?
Or are you making them up?

Plus you have had almost 60 years to improve your healthcare system.
It's time to stop blaming other people and start taking some responsibility for the dreadful state of healthcare in India. It is worse than many third world countries levels of health.
If they haven't managed to improve it in 60 years, how can you expect it to improve over the next 50?

Typical homeopathic response. Something good happens - it's homeopathy. Something bad happens it's something else.

You have been telling us how good homeopathy is in India and how widespread it is. I have shown how bad the health situation is in India.
How can you possibly continue with your claims?

And wouldn't the poor be able to use homeopathy easily? All they need is a bottle of homeopathic remedy and lots of water. Hey presto - unlimited health cures.

So,don't worry about us in India.

Worry about your childern, who are getting drugged, who feel utterly lonely, uncared for, and undergo all sorts of depressions.

That happens in every country including India.
Provide some evidence that it happens more in Western countries than India please.
Otherwise this is a groundless attack aimed at emotional response without any evidence.

Worry about your childern one out of every ten, born with eczema,which makes their life horrible, despite your steroids.

Worry about your increasing cases of ADD,ADHD,Schrizophenia, and mental depression.

All afflictions they have in India.
All afflictions that are not treated by homeopathy.
Your point?

Start thinking why your quality of life is deteiorating so fast? If you live a little longer than us,with a crippled mental and physical attitude, how does it help you?

Murthy

Well because you are lying. Our quality of life isn't deteriorating. Your claims to this effect have no evidence.
Many, many Indians emigrate to Western countries, particularly England.
Why do you think this would be if life is so much better in India?

I have travelled extensively throughout India. I can say first hand that the quality of life in many places there is nothing to be particularly bragging about.
I have never seen dead people lying unattended in the streets in any western country I have visited.
I have never seen rats crawling over naked children in the street and people with no arms and legs dragging themselves along the pavement in any western country.
I have never seen anything like Calcutta.

India is a wonderful place in many ways. But their health is in a terrible state. And too much time has passed now to be blaming the British for their current healthcare situation.

 

[Gavinimurthy]

I just don't bother about debating skills, nor matching you word to word, or line to line.

But one thing is obvious.You people don't bat an eyelid when calling names either of people, or the therapies,you don't like.When we refer to uncomfortable facts, you say it is irrelavant.

When health issues are debated,it is but natural to compare different therapies available, for any particular problem.You can't wish it away.

And I will not bother to provide you the evidence,the way you want it.What is evidence to me,may not be to you.

I can give any number of references, for the increasing problems of people of western countries, particulary, since the last 50 years,after the advent of your so called 'modern medicine.' But, I won't do it,as you yourselves know, where they are.

And, you can't wish away the fact that the eczema cases are rising alarmingly, among your countries, and the one of out ten, I mentioned is a conservative estimate.

Divert some of your energies, towards understanding the mess you are getting into. Criticising homeopathy won't bring you out of this sorry state of affairs.

Advise your people to stop using antibiotics,vaccines ,steroids, and painkillers ,indiscriminately,and try to save atleast the future generation.

The more the number of diseases you tend to try to remove, wholesale, by your vaccines, more new variants will come out, which will be more lethal.

Hepatitis B,C,D,..who knows if you keep tinkering with it you may go to "Z" also.

Murthy

 

[Carn]

I can give any number of references, for the increasing problems of people of western countries, particulary, since the last 50 years,after the advent of your so called 'modern medicine.' But, I won't do it,as you yourselves know, where they are.

No, i'm too stupid to use google properly(i'll tend to get 1000s of use less links), please show me where the numbers are.

And, you can't wish away the fact that the eczema cases are rising alarmingly, among your countries, and the one of out ten, I mentioned is a conservative estimate.

Divert some of your energies, towards understanding the mess you are getting into. Criticising homeopathy won't bring you out of this sorry state of affairs.

Advise your people to stop using antibiotics,vaccines ,steroids, and painkillers ,indiscriminately,and try to save atleast the future generation.

The more the number of diseases you tend to try to remove, wholesale, by your vaccines, more new variants will come out, which will be more lethal.

Hepatitis B,C,D,..who knows if you keep tinkering with it you may go to "Z" also.

Murthy

Here is a puzzle to you:
Why is the number of cancer patients in a country an excellent measure for the quality of the health care system?

You know it is pretty easy to answer this question.

But as you now have the answer in mind, rethink it. I meant, that the more cancer patients there are, the better the health care system is in a country.

Can you explain me why?


And if you think "that's ridiculous" even after thinking throughfully about the problem, then you didn't understand anything.

Carn

 

[Rolfe]

And wouldn't the poor be able to use homeopathy easily? All they need is a bottle of homeopathic remedy and lots of water. Hey presto - unlimited health cures.

Well, I don't think it's that easy. All that individualisation you know. You need a long consultation with a homoeopath to determine the exact sillymum for the patient. And then it turns out that isn't doing anything and you have to start all over again, sometimes three or four times before some change is seen. This isn't necessarily all that cheap. I mean you can't self-medicate, can you, when the whole case-taking part is so important. You might find yourself taking arnica for bruising and then when it doesn't clear up the bruise any quicker than it would have cleared up on its own the homoeopath will just tell you that was because the treatment wasn't individualised.

And the remedies are extremely expensive - at least they are in this country. £4.99 for about a teaspoonful of sugar, labelled Belladonna 30C (but containing only sugar, according to the label). In contrast a packet of soluble aspirin in the same shop was 69p. So since it's inconceivable that the homoeopathic industry could be ripping off people in Britain (oh, except that Richard Edwards' first-hand experience says that it is....), then that must be the true cost, mustn't it?

And although we know that if you buy one bottle of a remedy then you have a lifetime supply for you and your friends because you just keep topping it up, I'm not sure the homoeopaths actually publicise that one much. So overall, I don't think homoeopathy is as cheap as all that.

Rolfe.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

I can give any number of references, for the increasing problems of people of western countries, particulary, since the last 50 years,after the advent of your so called 'modern medicine.' But, I won't do it,as you yourselves know, where they are.

...snip...

Hepatitis B,C,D,..who knows if you keep tinkering with it you may go to "Z" also.

Murthy

India and hepatitis, some facts:

http://w3.whosea.org/en/Section10/Section17/Section58/Section220_217.htm


From: http://www.who.int/csr/disease/hepatitis/whocdscsredc200112/en/index4.html

Highlight by me:

…snip…

Trends
Hepatitis outbreaks occurring in Europe prior to the 20th century, and believed to be hepatitis A, had the epidemiologic characteristics of hepatitis E.

HEV, more labile and shed in lower titres than HAV, <span style="background-color:yellow;">may have disappeared from more industrialized countries in the recent past, just as HAV is currently diminishing in importance in these countries. </span>

…snip…

A rather unpleasant map of the geographic distribution of hepatitis E

 

[Rolfe]

I just don't bother about debating skills, nor matching you word to word, or line to line.

Nor about addressing any of the points you might find a little tricky. I'll say this for you homoeopaths, you're teflon-coated.

And, you can't wish away the fact that the eczema cases are rising alarmingly, among your countries, and the one of out ten, I mentioned is a conservative estimate. .... Criticising homeopathy won't bring you out of this sorry state of affairs.

Wow, full marks for the best "turning the argument upside down" in this thread.

We're not talking about eczema, or any of the problems you think exist with the use of real medicine. The thread is ABOUT homoeopathy. And criticising real medicine won't bring you out of the sorry state of affairs which is that homoeopathy doesn't work.

Don't think we haven't noticed. EVERY SINGLE TIME a homoeopath finds it difficult to answer all the evidence that cases treated with homoeopathic remedies do exactly what they were going to do anyway, they try to turn the subject into a tirade against real medicine. As was said earlier, pointing out that my car occasionally gets a puncture goes nowhere when what we're actually talking about is the fact that your car dosn't start at all.

If you want to talk about problems with over-prescription of steriods, or antibiotics, or the reasons why eczema seems to be increasing, start a thread about it. On this thread, answer the questions about homoeopathy, and why it doesn't actually do anything, and why even you wouldn't use it for a non-trivial illness.

Rolfe.

 

[Ashles]

I really wish there were hordes of homeopathy fence-sitters reading this thread to witness gavinmurthy's abysmal performance.

I just don't bother about debating skills, nor matching you word to word, or line to line.

But one thing is obvious.You people don't bat an eyelid when calling names either of people, or the therapies,you don't like.When we refer to uncomfortable facts, you say it is irrelavant.

What facts? You make claims without any evidence. How are these facts?
Plus they are attacking modern medicine. How does that demonstrate the efficacy of homeopathy?

When health issues are debated,it is but natural to compare different therapies available, for any particular problem.You can't wish it away.

And I will not bother to provide you the evidence,the way you want it.What is evidence to me,may not be to you.

I can give any number of references, for the increasing problems of people of western countries, particulary, since the last 50 years,after the advent of your so called 'modern medicine.' But, I won't do it,as you yourselves know, where they are.

I will take this as an admission you don't have the evidence to provide.
ETA - I mean evidence that countries with modern medicine are less healthy than those that use homeopathy or similar 'alternative' therapies.
And evidence that the problems actually are increasing in western countries overall, despite the continuing increases in life span.

And, you can't wish away the fact that the eczema cases are rising alarmingly, among your countries, and the one of out ten, I mentioned is a conservative estimate.

Is that really the best indicator of the state of a countries health?
You ignore high infant mortality rates. You ignore shorter life spans. You ignore WHO Healthy Life Expectancy figures.
And you make a big deal out of eczema?

Do you understand the expression "clutching at straws"?

Divert some of your energies, towards understanding the mess you are getting into. Criticising homeopathy won't bring you out of this sorry state of affairs.

Of course criticising modern medicine won't make homeopathy work any better.

Advise your people to stop using antibiotics,vaccines ,steroids, and painkillers ,indiscriminately,and try to save atleast the future generation.

The more the number of diseases you tend to try to remove, wholesale, by your vaccines, more new variants will come out, which will be more lethal.

Hepatitis B,C,D,..who knows if you keep tinkering with it you may go to "Z" also.

Murthy

Or we could just drink sugar water and hope all these diseases will go away.

Will you ever be able to quote any actual evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy?
Or have you just completely given up now and are only going to criticise modern medicine?

Again if you can quote figures that not using any form of medicine will make us healthier, happier and live longer then please do so.

 

[MESchlum]

India is a huge country with a population of 12,000,000,000.

There are wide disparities in progress from region to region.That is why the overall statistics seem so poor.

Quick comment: that is a population of 12 billion! (roughly twice the world population). I suppose the regions with poor statistics are those inhabited exclusively by the dead...

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Advise your people to stop using antibiotics,vaccines ,steroids, and painkillers ,indiscriminately,and try to save atleast the future generation.

I love it when they come up with that whole Grand Slam of anti-medicine nonsense.

Polio, Murthy.

Smallpox, Murthy.

Post-exposure vaccination for rabies, Murthy.

Are you really fool enough to think these are not successes brought about by vaccination programmes? Your tedious empty rhetoric just shows how little you know about either homeopathy or real medicine. As has already been pointed out to you, argument by blatant assertion only makes you look foolish.

Have you forgotten entirely the subject of this thread? You are meant to be showing us how brilliant homeopathy is. How do you feel you're doing?

 

[steenkh]

Actually, I thought this thread was about going through Hahnemann's Organon part by part. It seems to me that Gavinimurthy gave up when he realised that some here know the Organon just as well as he does, and that it is really indefensible (even as a historical document).

 

[Tom Morris]

We welcome all therapies,and will use the best one to suit the particular health problem.

Good, good. An open-minded person.

Now, back to homeopathy.

Please can you show scientific evidence of ANY homeopathic treatment that has done better than the equivalent non-homeopathic treatment? There must be evidence that it is not just bringing about a placebo effect. If you can demonstrate any evidence, I will be impressed.

Also, don't assume that,all the people patronising them are poor people. Even the most affluent, who can afford the best medicare, are coming to homeopathy, because of the gentle cure.

No, they are coming to homeopathy because ******** doesn't discriminate based on wealth or social class. People get suckered for stuff irrespective of their background. It's called natural incredulity. And, thanks to the advances in evolutionary biology, and millenias worth of experience, we actually have evidence for this incredulousness. Far more evidence than the water-diluters.

No therapy will last this long,if people don't get benefitted. How long did blood letting last?

The period of time for which something carries on is no proof of it's efficacy.

As long as, the crippling side effects of modern medicines can't be stopped, this exodus to homeopathy will continue, however hard you may try to stop it's progress.

Oh yes, I did have some pretty bad side effects when I went to get my broken arm sorted our way back when. I had to go under the knife (it was a complicated fracture, not just a simple break), have anaesthetics, have my arm bound in plaster for months - which distracted schoolwork.

Now, how would a potential homeopathic treatment sort out my broken arm?

Regarding all this talk about 'evidence' ,science has not progressed enough to explain how homeopathy works.
One day it will.

Science has explained exactly how homeopathy works. It works through delusion, ignorance, fear, uncertainty, paranoia and old fashioned ********. However much the treatment is watered down, the ******** can be tasted from miles around.

Rolfe::
Consider the current Vioxx affair. Seems to be quite a serious failure of drug safety control procedures. However, the problems were picked up by regular large-scale systematic research - you know, the sort of research homoeopaths reject, because it always shows that their remedies don't work.

Damn right. Science giveth that which does work and science taketh away that which does not. Homeopathy just lies and cheats and hands out placebo. Still, the latter earns more for the practitioner, since one doesn't actually have to risk any capital investing in a possible drug, or doing research, or facing the wrath of regulators when stuff goes wrong (since most countries turn a blind eye to this type of nonsense).

The complentary stuff is all just a fraud. The homeopath can take the credit when it works - the wonders of complementary medicine and all that - but doesn't have to take any responsibility when the corpses start piling up. I'd be interested to see how many homeopaths will take on cancer patients.

 

[Chris Haynes]

...
The British, who ruled this country, for more than 200 years, did nothing towards improving the health of the people here.
We got independence in 1947, and if you compare the figures from then to now,we are much better.

The progress achieved in the 50 odd years after independence, is not a mean achievement.We will definitely reach and excel western standards in another 50 years....

So this is why you adopt homeopathy... a German invention based on some bad data (Hahnemann's allergy)?

Indonesia did not get independence from the Dutch until 1949 in what was a very contentious conflict (my late hubby's uncle was a casaulty during his service in the Dutch Navy). And they were colonized not only by the Dutch, but also by the Portugese and British.

India info from http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107629.html

Population (2004 est.): 1,065,070,607 (growth rate: 1.4%); birth rate: 22.8/1000; infant mortality rate: 57.9/1000; life expectancy: 64.0; density per sq mi: 839

Indonesia info from http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107634.html

Population (2004 est.): 238,452,952 (growth rate: 1.5%); birth rate: 21.1/1000; infant mortality rate: 36.8/1000; life expectancy: 69.3; density per sq mi: 322

Even with their civil war... the mortality rates and life expectancy are better.

From population information from above and the table in http://w3.whosea.org/en/Section10/Section18/Section348.htm ...

The number HIV/AIDS cases in India (5,100,000) divided by the population: .0048
and
The number of HIV/AIDS Indonesia (110,000) divided by the population: .00046

Even with being tossed between several colonial powers, a war to get the Dutch out AFTER India gained independence AND its own present civil war --- the HIV/AIDS incidence is 10 times less prevelent.

 

[H'ethetheth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sooooo...

Frosty. Outside temperature is -1.0<SUP>o</SUP>C, which is the coldest I've seen it before midnight this winter. Well, there go the pelargoniums. Still, cosy 23.4<SUP>o</SUP>C indoors, so I'm snug.

How is it with you?

Rolfe.

Meh, not really rainy, not really cold, not really nice.
Mostly bedtime.

Good to hear though,

Night night.

 

[Rolfe]

Barb has just posted in another thread I see. It's difficult to engage with her in that she drops by, fires off a few comments, and then disappears for so long that the replies to her comments are buried in later discussion. So I thought I'd give her another shot at this one, her dismissal of the detailed account of the dishonesty and evident lack of efficacy on the pratice of one of the homoeopaths her friends on the H'pathy forum particularly revere. (For the original reference, see this link.

Originally posted by Barbrae
I already commented about this on hpathy. Really nothign to say, it's just anectdotal - I thought you guys didn't care about anecdotal stories.

How much detail do you want? I know Richard Edwards personally, and I have spoken to him (perhaps "listened to him" would be a better description!) on the phone about the incident.

*

What makes you so sure any of the rest of them are any better? The point about this story is that it supports exactly all the points we have been making about showcasing the coincidental recoveries while quietly forgetting about the less positive cases, and the brainwashing of people into thinking that homoeopathy has made a difference when in reality there has been no change in the patient's condition. Oh, and the point about the obscene profit margins on the magic sugar pills was one I have also pointed out now and again.

Really, no comment at all?

Barb, I seriously don't understand your attitude. Richard said he came from a sceptical point of view. But he was open-minded enough to listen to the case presented by the homoeopaths, and apparently he believed them. This is what you are always urging us to do. But when Richard does it, he's a fool to be taken in?

Remember, Richard wasn't intending to become a practising homoeopath himself. The deal was that his practice bought the homoeopathic practice, and took on the three homoeopaths working there as employees so that they would go on working as before. No different from, say, buying a small avian practice and keeping on the bird expert as an employee. Richard simply believed the tale the homoeopaths spun him, supported by all those dubious references that can be made to look relatively impressive to the unwary, and acted on the assumption that homoeopathy was as valid a branch of veterinary medicine as bird medicine.

Richard now realises that he was lied to and made a fool of. He bitterly regrets the whole incident. But who is the villain there? The innocent who believed the plausible lies, or the liars? You ask us to be open-minded, but when someone behaves in just the way you want, you then sneer at him for being a gullible fool?

Rolfe.

 

[Kumar]

What about Indian/Asean/underdeveloped people?

Are they still increasing at higher rate inspite more health problems?

Are their people are more resistant to more diseases & have better immunity or more vitality?

Who among both group are more effected by long term adverse effects of side/toxic/adverse effects of modern system's substances?

Who among both have lost effects due to become resistant/immune to effects of modern medicines?

OR

Who go more in accordance with nature system/nature balance?

 

[Jeff Corey]

What about Indian/Asean/underdeveloped people?

"We took some pictures of the native girls, but they weren't developed. So we're going back in a couple of years."
Dr. Julius Marx, D. H.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I had a cat brought to me this morning. It was in a state of collapse. The lady who brought it in did not want to spend much money and told me she did "healing" and could I minimise my treatment so she could do follow-up my expensive medicine with her "healing". I said she could but I had to be happy that the welfare of the animal was not compromised. Sad to say he died as the nurse tried to draw a blood sample before anything else could be done.

Rolfe will like these numbers: he had a K+ of 11.17mM and a creatinine of 1452uM. What I'd really wanted to say to her was, "Go on, if you're so effing smart, heal that."

It was also a shame that her healing powers allowed her not to recognise a cat with a terminal urinary obstruction for about 2 days.

So there you go, Murthy, another one in your mould. She'd have loved to have the case back when I'd done the hard work and she could then claim the credit for her "healing" during its convalescence. But first, just like you recommend, she turns up on the doorstep of a real physician to treat the life-threatening problem, just a day too late. Feckin' brilliant!