Understanding homeopathy

[Mojo]

And when we read your forums, and the homoeopathic literature, we find all sorts of nasty things happening to people after they have taken a homoeopathic remedy. And it is frequently accepted that these events are indeed caused by the remedy. They're called aggravations and healing crises and things like that. So where do we find the systematic studies of these side-effects?

It's not so much that these sort of adverse events are accepted as side-effects of the remedy; it often seems to be asserted that "aggravations" or whatever are actually positive signs, indicating that the remedy is working. I suppose if your remedy has nothing in it at all, you have to claim any later event as having been caused by the remedy.

 

[H'ethetheth]

Sooooo...

...am I to understand that you people got all the way to discussing the 2nd postulate then? In only 320 posts?

Marvellous.

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Sooooo...

...am I to understand that you people got all the way to discussing the 2nd postulate then? In only 320 posts?

I don't think we're discussing the postulates at all now, are we?

Murthy originally got all excited about the number of thread views and thought he was lecturing to a silent audience who were hanging on his every word. Hans pointed out the usual 1:10 ratio of posts to views, and explained that probably few people other than the posters were reading it. Murthy then decided that his pearls were too valuable to be cast before us swine, and said he'd stop his lecture unless the posts:views ratio became some extraordinary figure to indicate that there might be people who were shy about becoming involved in the debate but who might be swayed by his eloquence. We declined to sit here pressing the refresh button just to keep him posting, and he went away. He seems to have returned momentarily just to tell us once again that his mind is made up and no amount of evidence will sway him.

So we can talk about anything we like, really.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

It's not so much that these sort of adverse events are accepted as side-effects of the remedy; it often seems to be asserted that "aggravations" or whatever are actually positive signs, indicating that the remedy is working.

It's very cunning. A report of a potential adverse reaction to a regular medicine, no matter how rare or how trivial, and they're shouting "it's poison! Don't take it!"

However, take a homoeopathic remedy and (just as a random example ) your fingers fall off, gosh, you know, Ricky isn't at all concerned whether that was an aggravation or whether it was the disease taking its course because the remedy hadn't worked. Not even the smallest bit interested.

Even the slightest suggestion that a regular medicine caused someone to lose two fingers would have them starting threads decrying "allopathy" all over the internet. But a sequence of events they agree might be interpreted as indicating that a homoeopathic remedy did exactly that doesn't seem to concern them in the slightest.

(If you have no idea what I'm talking about, ask BSM.)

Rolfe.

 

[H'ethetheth]

Re: Re: Sooooo...

I don't think we're discussing the postulates at all now, are we?

Murthy originally got all excited about the number of thread views and thought he was lecturing to a silent audience who were hanging on his every word. Hans pointed out the usual 1:10 ratio of posts to views, and explained that probably few people other than the posters were reading it. Murthy then decided that his pearls were too valuable to be cast before us swine, and said he'd stop his lecture unless the posts:views ratio became some extraordinary figure to indicate that there might be people who were shy about becoming involved in the debate but who might be swayed by his eloquence. We declined to sit here pressing the refresh button just to keep him posting, and he went away. He seems to have returned momentarily just to tell us once again that his mind is made up and no amount of evidence will sway him.

So we can talk about anything we like, really.

Rolfe.

I noticed all that. I did read through most of it.
It's a shame that he felt that way, but I'll be the last person to stop someone running away crying.

Anyway, how's the weather?

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Re: Re: Sooooo...

Anyway, how's the weather?

Frosty. Outside temperature is -1.0<SUP>o</SUP>C, which is the coldest I've seen it before midnight this winter. Well, there go the pelargoniums. Still, cosy 23.4<SUP>o</SUP>C indoors, so I'm snug.

How is it with you?

Rolfe.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sooooo...

Frosty. Outside temperature is -1.0<SUP>o</SUP>C, which is the coldest I've seen it before midnight this winter. Well, there go the pelargoniums. Still, cosy 23.4<SUP>o</SUP>C indoors, so I'm snug.

How is it with you?

Rolfe.

Wow. That's cold. It's 22<SUP>o</SUP>C in SoCal. But it's supposed to rain later in the week, bringing more mudslides.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Several degrees below freezing here. Lots of snow lying about. We had a very heavy snowfall Sunday, lasting all through the night, with heavy wind-drifts, so Monday morning commuting was an interesting experience. Luckly, this week is "winter holiday" week, so traffic density was below the norm, which probably saved us from complete chaos.

There is some thaw forecast for the end of the week, then back to frost and more snow . It's pretty, but rather annoying.

Warm inside, but the RH in my house has dropped to 15%, which is less than comfortable. Here at work, it is regulated, but my wife is home with flu, so she can "enjoy" it all day.

Nice to be smalltalking for a change .

Hans

 

[Gavinimurthy]

Everthing else has already been dealt with nicely, so I'll just have an extra look at this one:

So, is that a qualifier? Then, let me remind you that terrorism is also spreading very fast. Do you still consider it a qualifier?

Also, I doubt this is true. Homeopathy is not spreading much in the western world where people have access to real medicine. The only places where I see it having any widespread support is countries like India and Pakistan, and you must excuse me, but I don't exactly see that as a recommendation. Both countries have a health care system that is at a very, shall we say, nascent state, at least for the common populace.

Oh, and welcome back. I hope this is not just a hit and run visit, but that you will be honorable enough to stay and address the replies.

Hans

Dear Hans

You are wrong.We have some of the best hospitals and best doctors in the world,and we get many patients from Arab countries,for treatment here. Remember that they were flocking to western countries, earlier.

The reason, why homeopathy, is getting popular, is due to Govt.support. We have govt research institutions exclusively for homeopathy, and govt. homeopathic hospitals,in every major town, not to speak of the private practitioners,who are in hundereds in every major city.

Also, don't assume that,all the people patronising them are poor people. Even the most affluent, who can afford the best medicare, are coming to homeopathy, because of the gentle cure.

Murthy

 

[Carn]

Dear Hans

You are wrong.We have some of the best hospitals and best doctors in the world,and we get many patients from Arab countries,for treatment here. Remember that they were flocking to western countries, earlier.

Did you consider, that some political events in the past might influence, where arabs go for treatment?

The reason, why homeopathy, is getting popular, is due to Govt.support. We have govt research institutions exclusively for homeopathy, and govt. homeopathic hospitals,in every major town, not to speak of the private practitioners,who are in hundereds in every major city.

Murthy

Imagine that india keeps up the good support for homeopathy for the next 100 years, but afterwards homeopathy is still the same as today, would you reconcider it's validity?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Dear Hans

You are wrong.We have some of the best hospitals and best doctors in the world,

I know. You also have space technology. Note that I said for the common populace. For the rich you have first class hospitals, for the common people, you rely on donations from the West for things like diabetes clinics.

and we get many patients from Arab countries,for treatment here. Remember that they were flocking to western countries, earlier.

Yes, but now the Western hospitals have to comply with so many pesky regulations.

The reason, why homeopathy, is getting popular, is due to Govt.support. We have govt research institutions exclusively for homeopathy, and govt. homeopathic hospitals,in every major town, not to speak of the private practitioners,who are in hundereds in every major city.

Yes. Cheap. But not for the rich and the Arabs. These excellent hospitals and world class doctors you speak of are not homeopathic.

... So, where are the reseach results from these govt. researchers?

Also, don't assume that,all the people patronising them are poor people. Even the most affluent, who can afford the best medicare, are coming to homeopathy, because of the gentle cure.

Or because rich are as superstitius as poor. And, like yourself, they know when to run to a real hospital. And they can afford it.

Murthy

Hans

 

[Zep]

Apologies all, I've been away a few days and haven't had time to respond, so I'm catching up here.

Kumar, Here's my original questions to you recently.

1) In which countries is homeopathy "mass & well distributed"? Name them, please. Also, accurately estimate how many people in each country are homeopaths and how many actually use homeopathy.

2) Name ONE government that has officially scientifically tested homeopathy in a reputable research situation, proved that it DOES work, and OFFICIALLY endorses it as viable medicine.

I await your response with interest, Kumar.

Now, here's your response.

The Government of India after having recognised the need of systematic research for the development of Indian System of Medicine and Homoeopathy in the country, established the Central Council for Research in Ayurveda, Yoga & Naturopathy, Unani, Siddha and Homoeopathy in 1969. This composite Council undertook systematic research in Ayurveda, Siddha , Unani Medicine, Yoga, Nature cure and Homoeopathy and continued to do so till 1978,when it was dissolved to pave way for the formation of four independent Research Councils, one each for Ayurveda and Siddha, Unani Medicine, Yoga and Nature Cure, and Homoeopathy.
http://ccrhindia.org/historyofccrh.htm

Hint: Where are the positive results of the scientific research? Where is the official endorsement of the practices by the government?

For 18 years after the creation of Pakistan, homeopathy was practiced widely but remained officially unrecognized. In 1965, the Government passed an act under which homeopathy and the indigenous herbal systems of medicine were regulated. Homeopaths wishing to continue their practice were assessed by a Government nominated Board of Senior homeopaths. All practitioners with sufficient experience and knowledge of the system were formally registered and allowed to continue their practice.

his Board of Homeopathic System of Medicine working under the Ministry of Health, was, in 1982, renamed the National Council for Homeopathy. This council is now responsible for conducting examinations, approving new homeopathic colleges, and registering practitioners.

Hint: Where is the scientific research? Where is the official endorsement of the practices by the government?

Perhaps you might care to READ YOUR ANSWER CAREFULLY to see why it doesn't answer my question at all.

And when you've done that, kindly answer the questions properly.

 

[Chris Haynes]

...The reason, why homeopathy, is getting popular, is due to Govt.support. We have govt research institutions exclusively for homeopathy, and govt. homeopathic hospitals,in every major town, not to speak of the private practitioners,who are in hundereds in every major city.....

Has this research been bound by the Organon... with this paragraph on internal itching:
http://www.homeopathyhome.com/reference/organon/30.html ..

Are women who come in with "internal itching" even checked for a yeast infection? Which would be more effective... going to a homeopathic practioner for that or walking into a pharmacy for a simple over the counter medication? (which is now in a 1 or 3 day form, and only 15 years ago it was at least a week and available by presciption only).


And let me try my questions yet AGAIN...

How effective is homeopathy versus antibiotics against syphilis? or gonorrhea?

Which is a better way to deal with tetanus: Homeopathy, antibiotics post infection, or prevention through vaccine?

If homeopathy deals with the WHOLE patient... how does a homeopath diagnose hypertrophic cardiomyopathy when the only real external sign is usually a general feeling of unwellness, sometimes some palpitations and dizzyness, and occasional pain in left arm during exersion (by the way often the first sign of this condition is sudden death). How could a homeopath detect the heart murmur? (which was how the child got an echocardiogram which found the genetic heart defect).

How would a homeopath deal with neo-natal seizures?

How effective is homeopathy with bi-polar disorder?

So how is homeopathy dealing with the ever increasing HIV/AIDS crisis in India... the country with over 5 million infections out of the almost 6.2 million in the SE Asia area. See the table at the bottom of http://w3.whosea.org/en/Section10/Section18/Section348.htm

The LAST question really should be addressed.

Again, if you continue to NOT answer these queries as before... I will accept that as you conceding that homeopathy is a failure for these very real medical conditions.

 

[Gavinimurthy]

Are women who come in with "internal itching" even checked for a yeast infection? Which would be more effective... going to a homeopathic practioner for that or walking into a pharmacy for a simple over the counter medication? (which is now in a 1 or 3 day form, and only 15 years ago it was at least a week and available by presciption only).


And let me try my questions yet AGAIN...

How effective is homeopathy versus antibiotics against syphilis? or gonorrhea?

Which is a better way to deal with tetanus: Homeopathy, antibiotics post infection, or prevention through vaccine?

If homeopathy deals with the WHOLE patient... how does a homeopath diagnose hypertrophic cardiomyopathy when the only real external sign is usually a general feeling of unwellness, sometimes some palpitations and dizzyness, and occasional pain in left arm during exersion (by the way often the first sign of this condition is sudden death). How could a homeopath detect the heart murmur? (which was how the child got an echocardiogram which found the genetic heart defect).

How would a homeopath deal with neo-natal seizures?

How effective is homeopathy with bi-polar disorder?

So how is homeopathy dealing with the ever increasing HIV/AIDS crisis in India... the country with over 5 million infections out of the almost 6.2 million in the SE Asia area. See the table at the bottom of http://w3.whosea.org/en/Section10/Section18/Section348.htm

The LAST question really should be addressed.

Yeast infections are cured very easily with homeopathy.Same is the case with Syphilis ang gonorrrrhea.

Tetanus can easily be prevented by homeopathy.We never take a shot,or antibiotics for possible tetanus.

I f I were to become dizzy,with pain in left arm,and have sudden weakness,first I will get all the checkups done, and if the problem is serious, I will get admitted in the hospital.

Neo natal seizures-- I am not competent to answer.

Bi- polar disorder -- I don't know what it is.

HIV- We will see which therapy can deal with this problem.Trials are goingo on in all therapies. I can't comment right now.

Any number of questions, you ask me,my answer wil be the same.

We know the positive aspects of modern medicine as well as its short comings.

We know the positive aspects of homeopathy as well as its limitations.

There may be some other people who know,what can be effectively cured by acupuncture.

We welcome all therapies,and will use the best one to suit the particular health problem.

We are not dogmatic.

Murthy

 

[geni]

Yeast infections are cured very easily with homeopathy.Same is the case with Syphilis ang gonorrrrhea.

Evidence?

Tetanus can easily be prevented by homeopathy.We never take a shot,or antibiotics for possible tetanus.

So you only deal with posible cases rather than actual?

I f I were to become dizzy,with pain in left arm,and have sudden weakness,first I will get all the checkups done, and if the problem is serious, I will get admitted in the hospital.

Good your lack of faith in homeopathy is fortunate

HIV- We will see which therapy can deal with this problem.Trials are goingo on in all therapies. I can't comment right now.

Huh? what happened to like cures like and prescribing on the symptoms presented?

 

[Chris Haynes]

Yeast infections are cured very easily with homeopathy.Same is the case with Syphilis ang gonorrrrhea.

Evidence? Proof? Documentation? I'm sorry, I cannot just take your word for it. Show us a study that is indexed on PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? ... remember, it also indexes several homeopathic journals.

Tetanus can easily be prevented by homeopathy.We never take a shot,or antibiotics for possible tetanus.

Evidence? Proof? Documentation? I'm sorry, I cannot just take your word for it. Show us a study that is indexed on PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? ... remember, it also indexes several homeopathic journals.

I... snip...
HIV- We will see which therapy can deal with this problem.Trials are goingo on in all therapies. I can't comment right now.

And they are doing a bang-up job. India is right now a hot bed of HIV/AIDS, and it is getting worse. Check out the table here http://w3.whosea.org/en/Section10/Section18/Section348.htm where India is the prime leader by a WIDE margin in HIV/AIDS infections in that part of the world.

Evidence? Proof? Documentation? I'm sorry, I cannot just take your word for it. Show us a study that is indexed on PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? ... remember, it also indexes several homeopathic journals.

Any number of questions, you ask me,my answer wil be the same.

And they are still unsatisfactory.

We know the positive aspects of modern medicine as well as its short comings.

Than admit to it.

We know the positive aspects of homeopathy as well as its limitations.

Evidence? Proof? Documentation? I'm sorry, I cannot just take your word for it. Show us a study that is indexed on PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? ... remember, it also indexes several homeopathic journals.

There may be some other people who know,what can be effectively cured by acupuncture.

Evidence? Proof? Documentation? I'm sorry, I cannot just take your word for it. Show us a study that is indexed on PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

We welcome all therapies,and will use the best one to suit the particular health problem.

We are not dogmatic.

Murthy

Except when comes to providing proof and evidence.

 

[Rolfe]

Evidence? Proof? Documentation?....

This is the mind-blowingly boring thing about all the homoeopaths who come here. They seem to think they can just make any statement that crosses their dim little minds, and that makes it so. I particularly liked the image of all these rich Arabs flocking to India to take advantage of their wonderfully advanced homoeopathic facilities!



So, we know the rich Arabs thing is pure fantasy. We also know perfectly well that the "homoeopathy can easily cure [insert name of condition]" statements have no more basis in fact. What we never see is a homoeopath facing up to a reasoned criticism and even trying to make a case in response.

How about this one, Gavin?

Boring.

Rolfe.

 

[Terry]

This is the mind-blowingly boring thing about all the homoeopaths who come here. They seem to think they can just make any statement that crosses their dim little minds, and that makes it so.

I've heard this referred to as proof by blatant assertion, which for some reason always makes me smile.

--Terry.

 

[Chris Haynes]

With the type of "proof/evidence" presented by the homeopaths I have seen I now have this image of the school yard kid with his/her hands on their hips saying: "It's true because I say so! So there!"



(I think we need a "So there!" smiley)

editted for grammar

 

[Ashles]

Well let's assume India heavily uses homeopathy then as gavinmurthy claims.

Let's see what good it has done India.

Do they live longer?
Life expectancy figures

Hmm no, it seems not.
135th on the list? Seemingly below every Western country? Not too good. In fact for its wealth it's an extremely poor performance.

Infant mortality in Asia
About 90/1000. Relatively high even for the region.

Let's compare with Europe
European infant mortality
So it's higher even than the worst European figures, and much worse than most (eg the UK is about 7/1000).

Well okay, so infant mortality is very high, life is short, but maybe Indians are healthy throughout life?

Healthy life expectancy figures
If I sort the data by male life expectancy lost with the countries with the least life expectency lost from ill health at the top (Denmark as it happens) then India comes.... 60th.
60th in the world, again quite a way below just about every western country.

If I sort for FEMALE life expectancy India rates...
160th.
One hundred and sixtieth!

Below Nigeria. Below Sudan and Senegal. Below Uganda.

So a relatively rich country like India has a shockingly low level of health.

Gavinmurthy, you say the Indian government is supporting homeopathy?

You know what? I believe you.

Please do not tell us about how good health is in your country.
Unless you have some facts you can provide that come from a more reliable source than the World Health Organisation.