Turkish support for ISIS

[magellan]

And Putin has become very good at exploiting the "Anti Establishment" attitude that premeates much of the Internet.
One of the Americans who quit Russia Today in the wake of the Ukraine Invasion stated that RT and Putin's Propaganda Network specfically targeted
the "Anti Establlishment " types.

There where 2?

 

[HoverBoarder]

I see images of trucks, no proof that they are ISIS oil trucks, or that they crossed the syrian-turkish border. Russian has proven itself to flat out lie about things like this so there is no prove except what is directly shown in the images. Certainly there is no evidence that the turkish government is involved, which is what Russia alleges. Again, they alleged routes involved Assad regime, rebel and YPG/PKK territory, so by your logic these groups must be involved too.

All you have to do is to check out the Turkish border at Reyhanli on maps and pictures to see that the oil trucks coming from Syria are crossing into Turkey. It's that easy.

As for the "no proof that they are ISIS oil trucks," They're coming from ISIS territory. Who else do you think they belong to?

"or that they crossed the syrian-turkish border." Seriously.... now you are just being ridiculous. Hundreds of oil trucks, at the border crossing; if they are not crossing the border, what else are they doing? Do you think they just come up to the border for the view and go back home?


I get that Putin is not very trustworthy at all. He lied extensively in his own country, in Georgia, in Ukraine, at the UN, and in Syria too. Everywhere he goes, and almost everything he does includes him lying. So it is fair and reasonable to question any statements or actions from Putin.

But, like I said before, this issue of Turkish support for ISIS in oil and military actions far predates Putin's entrance into the matter. That Putin has provided hard new evidence is due to his personal interests in the matter should be scrutinized carefully. However, the aerial footage that Putin has provided is solid hard proof. There is no rational logic or fact based refute that I have seen of it yet.

 

[ThunderChunky]

All you have to do is to check out the Turkish border at Reyhanli on maps and pictures to see that the oil trucks coming from Syria are crossing into Turkey. It's that easy.

Those are Trucks heading into syria and I don't know what's in them.

As for the "no proof that they are ISIS oil trucks," They're coming from ISIS territory. Who else do you think they belong to?

And they also pass through Regime, Kurd, and Rebel territory. They might just belong to middlemen or independent people trying to make enough money to live, or maybe ISIS..we don't have evidence one way or the other.

"or that they crossed the syrian-turkish border." Seriously.... now you are just being ridiculous. Hundreds of oil trucks, at the border crossing; if they are not crossing the border, what else are they doing? Do you think they just come up to the border for the view and go back home?

Depends. Some of the pictures are at the border crossing, other aren't. We can't take any picture of a truck anywhere as evidence of the truck carrying ISIS owned oil into Turkey at the behest of the Erdorgan family.

But, like I said before, this issue of Turkish support for ISIS in oil and military actions far predates Putin's entrance into the matter. That Putin has provided hard new evidence is due to his personal interests in the matter should be scrutinized carefully. However, the aerial footage that Putin has provided is solid hard proof. There is no rational logic or fact based refute that I have seen of it yet.

You still haven't made the case that the Turkish government is involved, which is Putin's allegation. You said the images were enough to prove "direct Turkish involvement."

I don't doubt some gas gets smuggled into Turkey, but the allegation is Turkish government complicity. Economically, it probably doesn't even make sense to send much gas to Turkey when most of ISIS' production can just be sold in Syria.

http://energyfuse.org/taking-stock-of-isis-oil-part-2/

 

[Childlike Empress]

But, like I said before, this issue of Turkish support for ISIS in oil and military actions far predates Putin's entrance into the matter.

And the issue of Turkish support for Islamist terrorist gangs predates ISIS' entrance into the matter.

When we're finished looking at Reyhanli, let's go one border crossing to the west, to Kasab near the med coast, where the Armenian Christians live(d) (Village with several churches to find just north-west from the border crossing). In March 2014 the Turks decided, again after a similar yet much bloodier event in 2013, to let a bunch of their favorite goons storm over from their side of the border into Syria and have their way with the population and their holy sites.

On the talk page of the wiki article I saved the following video with the remark "for those doubting that these things happen", so why not show it off.

I just see that embedding is disabled for it, so watch it on YouTube.

There's no violence or anything bloody in it, just a 4 min visit at the border station you've just seen from above, per annotated "rebel" videos. I don't know the logo to the right, but top left are Harakat Sham al-Islam, Islamic Front and Nusra Front (aka Al-Qaeda in Syria). Hardcore Islamists, with them a gang of vicious Chechens calling themselves Junud Al-Sham. If I'm not mistaken their red-bearded leader was just recently killed in an airstrike.

This is going on since the earliest days of the "civil war" under the eyes of and with active contribution from Turkey.

 

[Darth Rotor]

That's true. Turkey is a poor ally at best in this conflict, about as useful and harmful as our alliance with Pakistan was to our operations in Afghanistan.

No, don't think so. Turkey can be engaged and worked with in a way that those others cannot and will not. (I say this from some experience with both, though more and closer with the Turks). I appreciate that the problems are similar, since the local aims (Turk or Pakistani) will not always coincide with alliance aims. That's a problem in any alliance or coalition, to one degree or another. (See Teheran Conference and Yalta for other examples of such conflicts in aims ... )

 

[Childlike Empress]

Hardcore Islamists, with them a gang of vicious Chechens calling themselves Junud Al-Sham. If I'm not mistaken their red-bearded leader was just recently killed in an airstrike.

I wasn't mistaken about the news, but apparently it was false. The sweetheart (or someone controlling his account) just announced on twitter that the report of his death was an exaggeration.

 

[Henri McPhee]

Turkey is supporting Isis by attacking the Kurds in Turkey with tanks, and by doing that diverting Kurdish manpower, and womanpower, away from the fight against Isis in Syria and Iraq. The military situation looks like stalemate to me. British token bombing doesn't seem to be helping much. The Kurds should be given kit and equipment. They could do with a Rommel, or General Patton, there.

 

[magellan]

And Putin has become very good at exploiting the "Anti Establishment" attitude that premeates much of the Internet.
One of the Americans who quit Russia Today in the wake of the Ukraine Invasion stated that RT and Putin's Propaganda Network specfically targeted
the "Anti Establlishment " types.

So let me repeat: If you say "one of the americans" it implies that there was another besides the little Kirchick show. Who was the other American?

 

[The Don]

Turkey is supporting Isis by attacking the Kurds in Turkey with tanks, and by doing that diverting Kurdish manpower, and womanpower, away from the fight against Isis in Syria and Iraq. The military situation looks like stalemate to me. British token bombing doesn't seem to be helping much. The Kurds should be given kit and equipment. They could do with a Rommel, or General Patton, there.

It must be so nice to be so absolutely sure of the correct cause of action in such a complicated and volatile situation like this. Sure, giving Kurds all the support in the world may look like a good idea but 10 years down the road id the Kurds manage to destabilise Iraq, Turkey and Iran, we may be ruing our decision to support them quite so fully.

 

[Childlike Empress]

It must be so nice to be so absolutely sure of the correct cause of action in such a complicated and volatile situation like this. Sure, giving Kurds all the support in the world may look like a good idea but 10 years down the road id the Kurds manage to destabilise Iraq, Turkey and Iran, we may be ruing our decision to support them quite so fully.

Kurdistan is on the Ralph Peters map that many think is the blueprint for US aims in the region. The Kurds should worry more that the nature of that "Free Kurdistan" government might resemble Barzani mob rule instead of bottom-up direct democracy the followers of Öcalan envision.

[imgw=600]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Ralph_Peters_solution_to_Mideast.jpg[/imgw]

 

[HoverBoarder]

It must be so nice to be so absolutely sure of the correct cause of action in such a complicated and volatile situation like this. Sure, giving Kurds all the support in the world may look like a good idea but 10 years down the road id the Kurds manage to destabilise Iraq, Turkey and Iran, we may be ruing our decision to support them quite so fully.

Pretty much everyone besides ISIS agrees that the Kurds play an extremely vital role in stabilizing both Iraq and Syria. In Iraq, the Kurdish areas have for a long time been the most stable and open places in all of Iraq. Which is why so many high profile Sunnis and Shia have investments and property there.

In Syria like Iraq, the Kurdish areas are some of the safest places in all of the country.

Ten years ago, the best thing for stability was supporting the Kurds, that's true today, and 10 years from now, and 50 years from now.

One of the best things that can be done right now is to give more support to the Kurds in both countries while working on a peace settlement for all other parties besides ISIS and Al-Qaeda.

 

[angrysoba]

Okay, maybe this should be taken with a pinch of salt because it comes from Seymour Hersh and his mysterious sources, but I'm throwing this one out there anyway:

American intelligence had accumulated intercept and human intelligence demonstrating that the Erdoğan government had been supporting Jabhat al-Nusra for years, and was now doing the same for Islamic State. ‘We can handle the Saudis,’ the adviser said. ‘We can handle the Muslim Brotherhood. You can argue that the whole balance in the Middle East is based on a form of mutually assured destruction between Israel and the rest of the Middle East, and Turkey can disrupt the balance – which is Erdoğan’s dream. We told him we wanted him to shut down the pipeline of foreign jihadists flowing into Turkey. But he is dreaming big – of restoring the Ottoman Empire – and he did not realise the extent to which he could be successful in this.’

 

[Childlike Empress]

Okay, maybe this should be taken with a pinch of salt because it comes from Seymour Hersh and his mysterious sources, but I'm throwing this one out there anyway:

Some days ago I stumbled across a group called the "Ottoman Hearths" which apparently has two million members and a paramilitary wing that picked up where the Grey Wolves retired, just with an Islamist touch. My source collection and brief write-up here.

 

[Childlike Empress]

The Hersh piece is an interesting read. Grain of salt always needed, as you said, and the reason is that he is gate-keeping. Story-fixing. Certainly, as usual, a lot of nuggets of truth in it, though. Take this:

In July 2013, the Joint Chiefs found a more direct way of demonstrating to Assad how serious they were about helping him. By then the CIA-sponsored secret flow of arms from Libya to the Syrian opposition, via Turkey, had been underway for more than a year (it started sometime after Gaddafi’s death on 20 October 2011).​＊ The operation was largely run out of a covert CIA annex in Benghazi, with State Department acquiescence. On 11 September 2012 the US ambassador to Libya, Christopher Stevens, was killed during an anti-American demonstration that led to the burning down of the US consulate in Benghazi; reporters for the Washington Post found copies of the ambassador’s schedule in the building’s ruins. It showed that on 10 September Stevens had met with the chief of the CIA’s annex operation. The next day, shortly before he died, he met a representative from Al-Marfa Shipping and Maritime Services, a Tripoli-based company which, the JCS adviser said, was known by the Joint Staff to be handling the weapons shipments.

That's the real BENGHAZI! scandal and it doesn't take a Hersh to reveal it. Not some obscure details of what "Hillary" claimed about the event, but what really went on, which is that that "Ambassador" was an operative handling the shipment of arms and fighters to the next country after Libya was successfully destroyed by giving an air force to Al Qaeda and its leader brutally murdered. Obviously "with State Department acquiescence" with the Wicked Witch of the West cheering the events, completely irrelevant over which email server.

And I have a hard time believing that the fact that the operation didn't succeed is not because the coherence of the Syrian society was underestimated in the games, and most officials withstood even extraordinarily high bribes from the like of Qatar, but because the benevolent "Joint Chiefs" discreetly shared some Intelligence with some proxies...

 

[HoverBoarder]

Kurdistan is on the Ralph Peters map that many think is the blueprint for US aims in the region. The Kurds should worry more that the nature of that "Free Kurdistan" government might resemble Barzani mob rule instead of bottom-up direct democracy the followers of Öcalan envision.

Interesting map, but it's just a guess right? You might as well have 95% of the territory reserved for Unicorn Land and it would have the same basis in fact.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Interesting map, but it's just a guess right? You might as well have 95% of the territory reserved for Unicorn Land and it would have the same basis in fact.

Click on the map to get to the wikipedia article about the guy. Maybe his influence is exaggerated by some, but he certainly isn't nobody and this kind of scheme fits with what other "not nobodies" have proposed/envisioned/dreamed-up.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Okay, maybe this should be taken with a pinch of salt because it comes from Seymour Hersh and his mysterious sources, but I'm throwing this one out there anyway:

Semour is not a reliable source.

However, Turkish support for radical Islamist groups like Al-Nursa is a long standing fairly open reality.

Francis Ricciardone, the former U.S. ambassador to Turkey, and many other officials openly talk about the Turkish support for Al-Nursa.

For US, finding right allies in Syria will be tough

In an effort to map out the ideological spectrum of Syria’s various rebel groups, Turkish and American officials used a color-coded scheme: green for trusted friends, red for clear-cut enemies and yellow for those in the middle.

That middle section turned into a point of contention when it became clear that the Turks were willing to work with groups that were anathema to the United States, including al Qaida’s Nusra Front and the hard-line Ahrar al Sham. Turkish officials seemed to be gambling that they could build a moderate rebel force by nudging groups in the middle toward the green, friendly category.

“We said, ‘Yes, sure, OK, but a number of the groups that you’re working with, which you consider open to persuasion, we consider beyond the pale. And we will not work with them, and we’d rather you not work with them and we think they need to be blocked from transiting your borders,’ ” Francis Ricciardone, the U.S. ambassador to Turkey until last month, recalled Thursday in a media call arranged by the Atlantic Council foreign policy institute, where he’s now the director of the Middle East program.

“We ultimately had no choice but to agree to disagree,” Ricciardone said.

U.S. officials haven’t publicly acknowledged previously knowing that Turkey was providing assistance to Nusra, which the State Department designated a foreign terrorist organization in December 2012. Turkey’s Foreign Ministry didn’t respond to a request for comment.

Also, read the following article:

Syrian rebels: Turkey tipped al Qaida group [Al-Nursa] to U.S.-trained fighters

 

[HoverBoarder]

And the issue of Turkish support for Islamist terrorist gangs predates ISIS' entrance into the matter.

When we're finished looking at Reyhanli, let's go one border crossing to the west, to Kasab near the med coast, where the Armenian Christians live(d) (Village with several churches to find just north-west from the border crossing). In March 2014 the Turks decided, again after a similar yet much bloodier event in 2013, to let a bunch of their favorite goons storm over from their side of the border into Syria and have their way with the population and their holy sites.

On the talk page of the wiki article I saved the following video with the remark "for those doubting that these things happen", so why not show it off.

I just see that embedding is disabled for it, so watch it on YouTube.

There's no violence or anything bloody in it, just a 4 min visit at the border station you've just seen from above, per annotated "rebel" videos. I don't know the logo to the right, but top left are Harakat Sham al-Islam, Islamic Front and Nusra Front (aka Al-Qaeda in Syria). Hardcore Islamists, with them a gang of vicious Chechens calling themselves Junud Al-Sham. If I'm not mistaken their red-bearded leader was just recently killed in an airstrike.

This is going on since the earliest days of the "civil war" under the eyes of and with active contribution from Turkey.

Very interesting, thank you for the information and links. Not sure why America or any other NATO countries acknowledge these types of war crimes when they are committed by allies.

 

[Henri McPhee]

We should not always assume that statesmen are sensible. Anthony Eden was one of the most emotional Britissh prime ministers in history and his tenure in office ended in disaster.

I don't like this secret alliance between Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Israel. If the Middle East explodes, then America threatening the hydrogen bomb will not be much help. You need power and skills which I'm not sure America now has.

 

[Rincewind]

We should not always assume that statesmen are sensible. Anthony Eden was one of the most emotional Britissh prime ministers in history and his tenure in office ended in disaster.

I don't like this secret alliance between Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Israel. If the Middle East explodes, then America threatening the hydrogen bomb will not be much help. You need power and skills which I'm not sure America now has.

What secret alliance is this?

And how do you know about it?