Turkish support for ISIS

[jimbob]

Even the British would not build a huge shopping mall in Hyde Park, or Richmond Park, in London, due to civilised planning laws.

Turkey has been supporting the Islamic state, and the Muslim Brotherhood, which want to rid the region of Christians and Shia Muslims, and other minorities, and which has even upset the corrupt clique in Egypt. Turkey only wants to kill the wild Kurds.

The so-called Islamic state is another phrase for the Ottoman Empire to me. They have Spain and Italy and Nigeria in their sights, and Israelis are expected to get on to rubber boats to Europe as well.

Cameron is planning on doing some token bombing in Syria, which I don't think is much help. According to one of Cameron's cabinet ministers, Cameron's strategy seems to be to support a transitional government without Assad which would then deal with Isis on the ground. It's too idealistic. My own opinion is that a transitional government would last about five minutes, as happened in Libya. Stop supporting Al-Qaeda.

The trouble is both Obama and Cameron are simpletons. They need to seize the situation like a man and take a firm line with the CIA, and with Goldman Sachs.

It's a bit like Neville Chamberlain said to his Foreign Secretary Eden once "Anthony, you have missed chance after chance, you simply can't go on like this".

I didn't realise we were still living in the Middle Ages when "Christendom" had a fear of "the Turk"

 

[HoverBoarder]

There is nothing new about all this. Russia has been a Middle Eastern power for centuries.

In 1955 Dulles at the State Department in America tried to form a Baghdad Pact to act as a bulwark aginst Russia. Pakistan and Turkey and Iran and Iraq joined the Baghdad Pact, but most of the other Arab counties refused to join for reasons that were not fully understood, but were something to do with Arab rivalries, and conflict with Israel, and being anti-British and anti-American. Iraq was a backward state then with an inefficient civil service. Not much has changed since then. Turkey was concerned about Russian agent intrigues with the wild Kurds even then.

There is a bit about this from an old Penguin book in about 1956:

"In these manoeuvres the fate of Syria was of special interest; it has been the home of the fiercest and most unqualified Arab nationalism, even though the Syrian government has never distinguished itself, or been stable. The Baghdad allies lost the struggle for Syria even though Turkey went to the length of making hardly concealed military threats on the Syrian border".

That is a very interesting quote with amazing parallels to today.

Cameron has just said he intends to use 70000 Free Syrian Army 'moderate' opposition fighters to support his Air and land token air strikes in Syria. The Americans managed to find four or five to train and equip, and to give them coalition air support. It's want of judgment and lack of strategic ability.

The number of FSA fighters in Syria are very hard to determine. There are an estimated 47,000 according to an outdated two year old estimate, and that was before two of the largest factions disintegrated, and large portions of the FSA have joined forces with the Turkish/Saudi Arabian/Qatari created Army of Conquest that is run by Al-Qaeda's official arm in Syria Al-Nursa and Al-Sham which includes many former high level Al-Qaeda operatives.

As it relates to this thread, this is another area where Turkey has knowingly supported outright terrorist jihadist organizations to further their own foreign policy goals.

Of that estimated 47,000 FSA fighters, 7,000 are allied with the YPG in the North, and could pretty fairly be designated as 'moderate.' Of the remaining 40,000, the number can be significantly lowered because the original Idlib factions were almost entirely wiped out by Al-Nursa, the largest faction the Southern Front mostly disintegrated, and the FSA in Aleppo has been hit from all sides (ISIS, Al-Nursa, regime forces, and the Russians) and has had wide spread desertions.

Since so many factions of the FSA have turned to hardline Jihadist alliances, or have just been wiped out or disintegrated. You have maybe 10,000 to 20,000 'moderate' FSA opposition fighters left besides the 7,000 'moderate' fighters allied with the YPG Kurds.

The YPG has an estimated 50,000 fighters which have time and time again shown themselves to be the most moderate force in Syria.

Once you add in the Kurds, and their FSA allies you can get close to that 70,000 number pretty fast.


Providing the YPG and their Arab FSA allies with more arms and financial support is definitely the best way to take on ISIS, and probably the best plan towards stabilization in Syria in general.

It looks to me as though Isis are usually able to shelter from bombing in underground tunnels anyway, or they have fled to Mosul.

Wrong, the bombing campaign against ISIS with YPG support has been very effective against ISIS.

It is the exact reason why ISIS has had such an enormous problem with desertions and why their jails are mostly full of fighters who have wanted to escape.

ISIS fighters who have escaped will say the same thing.

I don't know if the RAF is now going to be used to topple Assad, as Cameron previously intended. I have not been told.

In my opinion Britain, France and America and Turkey should stop supporting Al-Qaeda and Isis with 'train and equip' and think of some non-military means of solving the problem in order to further the interests of the people. It's unfair on all the people trying to get on rubber boats to Europe, which are now causing unmanageable problems for local authorities in Europe. Turkey should stop trying to recreate the old Ottoman Empire with its Isis allies.

The coalition should focus on Al-Nursa and other Al-Qaeda affiliates that we have so far avoided because they are supported by Turkey/SA/Qatar, and we don't want to offend them or be rude by telling them to stop supporting Al-Qaeda.

Unfortunately, there are no real 'non-military means' of solving this problem. All of the peace talks at best would join small portions of the opposition with regime forces to take on ISIS and Al-Qaeda in exchange for more freedom, a revised Constitution, and new elections. Although all of that would happen only after a lot more war, possibly lasting for 5-10 years more after a peace deal is reached.

'Non military means' just basically means that other people will do the military fighting, the war goes on for much longer, and hundreds of thousands of more people die.

If we want to save lives and stop this war earlier, we have to stop being afraid of being rude or offensive by demanding that Turkey/SA/Qatar stop supporting Al-Qaeda and ISIS.

 

[Henri McPhee]

I didn't realise we were still living in the Middle Ages when "Christendom" had a fear of "the Turk"

Not all Turks agree with each other and some Turks are very nice people. It's Turkish Military Intelligence that needs a kick up the backside. They are the ones causing the trouble in Iraq and Syria. There seems to be a lack of public criticism and investigative journalists in Turkey because they are now all in jail.

Blindly supporting the CIA, along with CIA and Sky TV support for Turkey, and 'train and equip' for Al-Qaeda, is just leading to a whole lot of failed states in the region, and nearly everybody trying to get on to rubber boats. What about a bit of sane government for a change, and furthering the interests of the people so that they can start prospering? Just hoping the Russians will make a strategic error in Syria, like the Americans did in Vietnam, and secretly planning for a war with Iran is not good enough.

 

[Childlike Empress]

That is a very interesting quote with amazing parallels to today.

b dug up a Czech cartoon from 1958 today:

 

[jimbob]

I'm not sure what you are aiming to communicate with a propaganda cartoon from that country ten years before the Czech people showed what they thought of Soviet Hegemony, and two years after the Hungarian uprising was crushed.

The US did much bad in the Cold War, but the Soviets were far worse.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I'm not sure what you are aiming to communicate with a propaganda cartoon from that country ten years before the Czech people showed what they thought of Soviet Hegemony, and two years after the Hungarian uprising was crushed.

The US did much bad in the Cold War, but the Soviets were far worse.

Don't be so lachrymose, I was just sharing what was shared with me elsewhere in commentary on related events. I thought it to be of interest.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Turkey should stop trying to recreate the old Ottoman Empire with its Isis allies.

What s load of bollocks.

I disagree with you. It's not bollocks. You don't understand what is going on:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150628024320/http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/22243

Note the updated weblink, and also the referenced article in the Atlantic
Sultan Erdogan: Turkey's Rebranding Into the New, Old Ottoman Empire

Zalewski referenced comments made in 2009 by Ahmet Davutoglu, Turkey’s prime minister since August, in which he actually confirmed to the press that, “We are the new Ottomans” just before he became foreign minister.

“Whatever we lost between 1911 and 1923, whatever lands we withdrew from, we shall once again meet our brothers in those lands between 2011 to 2023,” Davutoglu was quoted as saying in 2012...

If Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan has been labelled by some the “Prince of Terror” or the mastermind behind the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) and other terrorist organizations in the Middle East and North Africa, President Erdogan is fast becoming a strong contender for such titles as his involvement with the “black army” has prompted many to raise concerned eyebrows.

In March 2013, before the attack on Kobane and Ankara’s inaction before the rise of ISIS, northern Syria became centre stage to a heated debate on Turkey’s ties with Islamic radicalism, journalist and Assyria TV editor Dikran Ego accused Turkey of directly supporting al-Qaeda and other radical groups in the region as part of its strategy for territorial expansion.

Looking back to May 2012, quite early on in ISIS’ advances in the region, Turkish Foreign Minister Davutoglu remarked to the press, “We will manage the wave of change in the Middle East. Just as the ideal we have in our minds about Turkey, we have an ideal of a new Middle East. We will be the leader and the spokesperson of a new peaceful order, no matter what they say,” pointing to Erdogan’s grand plan for the region. At the time, too few realised how exactly this “new order” will be brought about and more importantly under which banner it will be brought forth.

If the Egyptian government’s accusations against Turkey that Ankara has masterminded terrorism are any indications of broader regional concern, President Erdogan appears more and more to sit within the eye of a raging terror storm...

Sideroxlon, two questions. First, do you dispute what Ahmet Davutoglu said.

Also, what do you think about Turkey's support for radical Jihadist groups like the outright support for Al-Qaeda's Al-Nursa, and the more overt support for ISIS? Do you think it has helped our hurt Turkey's National goals?

 

[Sideroxylon]

It's an interesting subject. A lot of contradictions which seems par for the course with Turkish politics. Some forms of Ottoman aspirations are there as are support for dodgy groups in Syria. The AKP started well but has seriously damaged the nation.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Russian MoD just held a press conference delivering the evidence Erdogan demanded for Turkey's central role in the ISIS oil smuggling. They said something along the line that it would be up to the Turkish people to decide the future of him now (who proclaimed yesterday he would resign if Putin's accusations were proven).

edit: video

 

[McHrozni]

Russian MoD just held a press conference delivering the evidence Erdogan demanded for Turkey's central role in the ISIS oil smuggling.

The "evidence" they cited was that ISIS is using truck to ferry oil to Turkey.

Hardly a convincing case, or anything new, really. Useful to make the distance between Russia and Turkey even greater, but they already missed their chance with Turkey. It was Turkish elections a few weeks ago.

McHrozni

 

[Lennart Hyland]

I guess the videos showing Russian destroying about 200 ISIS trucks wasnt fake at all...

 

[ThunderChunky]

The "evidence" they cited was that ISIS is using truck to ferry oil to Turkey.

Hardly a convincing case, or anything new, really. Useful to make the distance between Russia and Turkey even greater, but they already missed their chance with Turkey. It was Turkish elections a few weeks ago.

McHrozni

What's new is they are claiming that Erdogan is smuggling the oil through YPG/PKK controlled territory. ISIS, YPG/PKK, and Erdogan all working together!

 

[crescent]

What's new is they are claiming that Erdogan is smuggling the oil through YPG/PKK controlled territory. ISIS, YPG/PKK, and Erdogan all working together!

Russia seems to consider the YPG and PKK to be part of ISIS. Everyone who is not fighting on behalf of the Syrian government is ISIS, according to Russia and the Syrian government.

That said, groups in Syria do tend to fight each other while still managing to do business together. I have no problem believing that oil, particularly oil collected in Kurdish areas is being smuggled into Turkey. Time will tell how much (if any) involvement the Turkish government has, and if Erdogan himself has any involvement. The Russians don't seem to have made much of a case there yet, but they claim that they have more information to present.

 

[dudalb]

I am suprised so many people are here are swallowing the line the Putin's Propaganda Machine is putting out hook.line,and sinker.

 

[ThunderChunky]

I am suprised so many people are here are swallowing the line the Putin's Propaganda Machine is putting out hook.line,and sinker.

The rubes love the rubles.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Qamishli border crossing is controlled by "Assad regime"™, not YPG, if that does anything to help readjust your good/evil compasses...

 

[crescent]

Qamishli border crossing is controlled by "Assad regime"™, not YPG, if that does anything to help readjust your good/evil compasses...

Are you saying that oil is being smuggled from Kurdish or ISIS held areas into Turkey through a Syrian Government controlled crossing point?

 

[Childlike Empress]

Time will tell how much (if any) involvement the Turkish government has, and if Erdogan himself has any involvement. The Russians don't seem to have made much of a case there yet, but they claim that they have more information to present.

There isn't a lack of information on this as this thread has already shown. The Russians have left the door open again with leaving the personal stuff for the "next installment" of the show. What Erdogan has to do now is apologize. Fittingly enough he's in Doha at the moment, wearing some dark age penguin skirt, and complaining that nobody has the right to "slander Turkey" while whining that he doesn't want to worsen relationship with Russia anymore. The only reason Today's Zaman can even report this in face of high profile journalists now detained for reporting about the Turkish state deliveries to Islamist terrorists seems to be that important people in the Gülen movement are seriously pissed. Hürriyet on the other hand doesn't have that powerful backing and is heading the whole day with this pearl of journalism while being silent about that press conference (edit: no, not completely silent, just not anywhere on their front page - saw it in automatically generated "related news" right now):

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has said Russian President Vladimir Putin used to call him “brave and bold,” before the two countries’ relations soured over Turkey’s downing of a Russian fighter jet near the Syrian border on Nov. 24.

“Putin’s statements about me have always been about my bravery and boldness ... He also had many words on my honest statesmanship. When he meets with [former Italian Prime Minister Silvio] Berlusconi and [former German Chancellor Gerhard] Schröder, his words have always been in that direction,” Erdoğan told reporters en route to Qatar after the U.N. Climate Change Conference in Paris. [...]

 

[Childlike Empress]

Are you saying that oil is being smuggled from Kurdish or ISIS held areas into Turkey through a Syrian Government controlled crossing point?

I'm saying that with that amount of money lying on the road a lot of people decide to play. I was surprised about this alleged route as well, while the other two are well-documented. That it hurts Russia's alleged protege via the fact I mentioned kind of makes it more plausible to me, as the Russians really are in wielding-the-sword-of-truth mode now that they have the world's attention.

 

[crescent]

I'm saying that with that amount of money lying on the road a lot of people decide to play.

That's true. Turkey is a poor ally at best in this conflict, about as useful and harmful as our alliance with Pakistan was to our operations in Afghanistan.

Erdogan is about as much of a megalomaniac as Putin is. I've always thought that if Putin stroked Erdogan's ego enough, he might have been able to start pulling Turkey away from NATO and more into the Russian sphere of influence. Not much chance of that now, though. I think a lot of NATO governments dislike Erdogan, though, and are disappointed at his dictatorial tendencies.

Erdogan has dismantled most of the checks and balances in the Turkish government. If he goes, I would think Turkey could become very unstable.