Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

[varwoche]

FTFY

Just because the attempt to overturn the election result, storm the Capitol and hang the Vice President was poorly organised and on this occasion didn't succeed, doesn't mean that it wasn't a coup attempt.

Rest assured that lessons have been learned and the same mistakes won't be made next time.

Further, the coup attempt didn't begin and end on Jan 6. It had been underway for months.

 

[Thermal]

I’m sorry, but you didn’t pay attention. Some of them were very clear about their means to success: kill Pence, kill Pelosi, kill whoever else to stop the certification. No certification, no electoral vote, and Trump is still president.

That is both a viable threat to those in power and a plan for success. Just because there are massive holes in their plan, doesn’t mean that they, at least some of them, weren’t entirely serious about it and believed it would work. Moreover, as has been pointed out, all this played into Trump’s plan to overthrow a legitimate election. All of that equals an attempted coup.

We've been over this several times. A few randoms wandering around with no coordination talking...repeat, only talking...about killing people is not a coup attempt.

Let's assume you are right, and that the Q-tips who said they were going to kill Pence and Pelosi and whoever else were a credible threat. Were P&P put on protective detail by the Secret Service? Was any further attempt made? Has anyone been charged with the very serious crime of attempted assassinations? Or are you saying the Feds...what, forgot to charge anyone or protect them?

The FBI concluded that there was no organized attempt to do anything. The rioters all wandered home for dinner that same night. It was not a coup attempt, standalone or in toto.

That excuses nothing. I have said more than once that they should be building new prisons to house each and every one of the J6ers for the foreseeable future. But we still have to call it what it is, not what sounds more damning and dramatic. We should be above that.

Have any of the swooners on the forum taken this obvious coup evidence to the FBI et al? You guys could go down in history for discovering it. Why wait to be in the history books? They could call it the Upchurch Unravelling, and teach kids about how randoms on the internet schooled the DOJ on what a coup is all about. Get back to us on how that went.

 

[digger]

Oh, believe me, I'm not expecting you to agree. I'm a "Woo", after all. Don't let me interrupt all of this brilliance and hyperbole taking place.

In the meantime, me and my vast network of woomasters will continue to call this the "Capitol Riot", like most other grounded people and media do. For whatever nefarious reasons.

This is an argument from popularity. Lots of peoplr agree with you, so you're right. That is not a valid argument, because lots of people could be wrong. You have not supported your position by identifying what aspect of coupness was lacking from Jan 6.

What would have made Jan 6 a coup? How will we know a real coup when we see one?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

We've been over this several times. A few randoms wandering around with no coordination talking...repeat, only talking...about killing people is not a coup attempt.

Let's assume you are right, and that the Q-tips who said they were going to kill Pence and Pelosi and whoever else were a credible threat. Were P&P put on protective detail by the Secret Service? Was any further attempt made? Has anyone been charged with the very serious crime of attempted assassinations? Or are you saying the Feds...what, forgot to charge anyone or protect them?

The FBI concluded that there was no organized attempt to do anything. The rioters all wandered home for dinner that same night. It was not a coup attempt, standalone or in toto.

That excuses nothing. I have said more than once that they should be building new prisons to house each and every one of the J6ers for the foreseeable future. But we still have to call it what it is, not what sounds more damning and dramatic. We should be above that.

Have any of the swooners on the forum taken this obvious coup evidence to the FBI et al? You guys could go down in history for discovering it. Why wait to be in the history books? They could call it the Upchurch Unravelling, and teach kids about how randoms on the internet schooled the DOJ on what a coup is all about. Get back to us on how that went.

Seeing these People Obviously believed they would have Military support, and when that did not occur their plans failed, I would say it was a Coup attempt by idiots who didn't have the brains or guts to follow though with it!

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

We've been over this several times. A few randoms wandering around with no coordination talking...repeat, only talking...about killing people is not a coup attempt.

Let's assume you are right, and that the Q-tips who said they were going to kill Pence and Pelosi and whoever else were a credible threat. Were P&P put on protective detail by the Secret Service? Was any further attempt made? Has anyone been charged with the very serious crime of attempted assassinations? Or are you saying the Feds...what, forgot to charge anyone or protect them?

The FBI concluded that there was no organized attempt to do anything. The rioters all wandered home for dinner that same night. It was not a coup attempt, standalone or in toto.

That excuses nothing. I have said more than once that they should be building new prisons to house each and every one of the J6ers for the foreseeable future. But we still have to call it what it is, not what sounds more damning and dramatic. We should be above that.

Have any of the swooners on the forum taken this obvious coup evidence to the FBI et al? You guys could go down in history for discovering it. Why wait to be in the history books? They could call it the Upchurch Unravelling, and teach kids about how randoms on the internet schooled the DOJ on what a coup is all about. Get back to us on how that went.

Oh and actually I have talked to Homeland Security, because I knew in December that January 6th was going to be a violent Insurrection.

 

[BobTheCoward]

This is an argument from popularity. Lots of peoplr agree with you, so you're right. That is not a valid argument, because lots of people could be wrong. You have not supported your position by identifying what aspect of coupness was lacking from Jan 6.

What would have made Jan 6 a coup? How will we know a real coup when we see one?

?

They are telling you what they are going to do.That isn't an argument from popularity. That is like me saying, "I'm going to the bathroom" and you responding, "that.is a logical fallacy."

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

This is an argument from popularity. Lots of peoplr agree with you, so you're right. That is not a valid argument, because lots of people could be wrong. You have not supported your position by identifying what aspect of coupness was lacking from Jan 6.

What would have made Jan 6 a coup? How will we know a real coup when we see one?

Simple a Real Coup will involve the Millitary and have Millitary support, only way it could actually occur.
It was lies over years that lead up to January 6th, and that's why I knew these Insane Insurrectionists were going to fail.

 

[Thermal]

Seeing these People Obviously believed they would have Military support, and when that did not occur their plans failed, I would say it was a Coup attempt by idiots who didn't have the brains or guts to follow though with it!

I think 'credible attempt' should factor in there somewhere.

I think the Trumpsters thought they were going to do something, but absolutely no idea what. I mean literally, not the foggiest idea. If you are going to seize power, and I mean actually seize power, you need to actually take steps to make that happen. J6ers took the rioting steps (the opening volley), then moved on to selfies and souveneirs before getting home for supper. They forgot to take the actual coup steps. Skipping over that part is the only argument we are having. You think that 'vaguely thinking about stopping the steal' while storming the castle is a real attempt to seize power. I disagree. It's a lot of things, all of them profoundly unAmerican and unforgivable, but an attempted coup is not one of them.

eta: 'believing' they would have military support means squat. They can believe that Egyptian Pharaohs will rise from the stand to support them. It doesn't matter what people believe. It matters what they do.

 

[Upchurch]

We've been over this several times. A few randoms wandering around with no coordination talking...repeat, only talking...about killing people is not a coup attempt.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/22/man-charged-loaded-firearm-capitol-riot-523178

Let's assume you are right, and that the Q-tips who said they were going to kill Pence and Pelosi and whoever else were a credible threat. Were P&P put on protective detail by the Secret Service? Was any further attempt made? Has anyone been charged with the very serious crime of attempted assassinations? Or are you saying the Feds...what, forgot to charge anyone or protect them?

As I posted above, the feds are still working through the hundreds cases related to that day. And, yes, by most accounts, the insurgents were mere minutes away from intersecting with some of the top people, some only missing congresspeople due to quick thinking by the police.

The FBI concluded that there was no organized attempt to do anything. The rioters all wandered home for dinner that same night. It was not a coup attempt, standalone or in toto.

The congressional investigation is still underway. I wouldn’t dismiss anything just yet.

But regardless, did you hear nothing people in the Trump circle were saying prior to the coup attempt? Even my non-political friends on Facebook were predicting what eventually happened. I don’t understand what you don’t understand. As they say, when people tell you who they are, listen the first time.

Have any of the swooners on the forum taken this obvious coup evidence to the FBI et al? You guys could go down in history for discovering it. Why wait to be in the history books? They could call it the Upchurch Unravelling, and teach kids about how randoms on the internet schooled the DOJ on what a coup is all about. Get back to us on how that went.

Okay, so am I correct, through this haze of emotional appeal, that you believe it was not a coup attempt because the insurrectionists were not organized? If so, I question what your definition of “organized”. Where they a coordinated group with military precision? No, of course not. However, did hundreds of people spontaneously and independently get it into their heads to storm the Capitol all with the expressed purpose of stopping the certification of the election? Or was there an organized effort to get this large group of people together, get them riled up, and aim them at the Capitol? Can you honestly say there wasn’t?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I think 'credible attempt' should factor in there somewhere.

I think the Trumpsters thought they were going to do something, but absolutely no idea what. I mean literally, not the foggiest idea. If you are going to seize power, and I mean actually seize power, you need to actually take steps to make that happen. J6ers took the rioting steps (the opening volley), then moved on to selfies and souveneirs before getting home for supper. They forgot to take the actual coup steps. Skipping over that part is the only argument we are having. You think that 'vaguely thinking about stopping the steal' while storming the castle is a real attempt to seize power. I disagree. It's a lot of things, all of them profoundly unAmerican and unforgivable, but an attempted coup is not one of them.

They had been falsely lead to believe that Trump had a secret deal with the United States Military, and they believed that.
They expected Trump to declare Marshall Law, and take control of Congress, that's what they were lead to believe would happen.
The Oath Keepers, Better Known as Ron Paul's Waco Whackos, or the morons of MySpace, were trying to plot a coup in 2008 against Obama.
However when the were told it would fail because the Military wouldn't support it they backed down, and began backtracking and deleting their posts on the Republican Libertarian forum of Ron Paul Supporters.

 

[digger]

We've been over this several times. A few randoms wandering around with no coordination talking...repeat, only talking...about killing people is not a coup attempt.

Let's assume you are right, and that the Q-tips who said they were going to kill Pence and Pelosi and whoever else were a credible threat. Were P&P put on protective detail by the Secret Service? Was any further attempt made? Has anyone been charged with the very serious crime of attempted assassinations? Or are you saying the Feds...what, forgot to charge anyone or protect them?

The FBI concluded that there was no organized attempt to do anything. The rioters all wandered home for dinner that same night. It was not a coup attempt, standalone or in toto.

That excuses nothing. I have said more than once that they should be building new prisons to house each and every one of the J6ers for the foreseeable future. But we still have to call it what it is, not what sounds more damning and dramatic. We should be above that.

Have any of the swooners on the forum taken this obvious coup evidence to the FBI et al? You guys could go down in history for discovering it. Why wait to be in the history books? They could call it the Upchurch Unravelling, and teach kids about how randoms on the internet schooled the DOJ on what a coup is all about. Get back to us on how that went.

Your sarcastic tone is in bad taste, and should leave you embarrassed after this exchange. Being glib and wrong at the same time is a bad look.

You are presenting an argument from authority. Such an argument is only valid if you demonstrate that there is substantial consensus amongst relevant authorities, and that your opinion represents this consensus. You have made no attempt to demonstrate this, simply baldly stating it in a sarcastic manner as if that were a valid argument.

----justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/two-charged-conspiracy-obstruction-and-assault-law-enforcement-related-jan-6-capitol----

The system won't let me post links yet. Put am http collon slash slash www dot in front of that and it's a link that supports my point.

"According to court documents, Sandlin and DeGrave planned to interfere with the peaceful transition of presidential power"

Pretty straight forward really. I suggest you find another hill to die on.

 

[digger]

?

They are telling you what they are going to do.That isn't an argument from popularity. That is like me saying, "I'm going to the bathroom" and you responding, "that.is a logical fallacy."

Everyone calls it a riot so it isn't a coup is an argument from popularity. I'll not engage any further on the subject.

 

[digger]

Simple a Real Coup will involve the Millitary and have Millitary support, only way it could actually occur.
It was lies over years that lead up to January 6th, and that's why I knew these Insane Insurrectionists were going to fail.

No, not all coups involve the military. That is why some coups are called "military coups."

But now we're getting somewhere. All we have is a disagreement on the definition of coup. I suggest that we use the mirriam/webster definition of "coup d'etat," which is "a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics
especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group."

Do you agree to this definition? Do you agree that, by this definition, Jan 6 was a coup attempt?

 

[Thermal]

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/22/man-charged-loaded-firearm-capitol-riot-523178

Holy ****, you're saying someone carried a gun illegally in the United States and did nothing with it? Jesus Christ, alert the Press! That's a coup for sure!

As I posted above, the feds are still working through the hundreds cases related to that day. And, yes, by most accounts, the insurgents were mere minutes away from intersecting with some of the top people, some only missing congresspeople due to quick thinking by the police.

And? You are still Begging the Question that something coup-ish would have happened. I think they would have continued doing exactly what they had been doing: bumbling around with no idea what they were doing. It would have been Beavis and Butthead meet Congress.

The congressional investigation is still underway. I wouldn’t dismiss anything just yet.

But regardless, did you hear nothing people in the Trump circle were saying prior to the coup attempt? Even my non-political friends on Facebook were predicting what eventually happened. I don’t understand what you don’t understand. As they say, when people tell you who they are, listen the first time.

Yes, everyone predicted that something would happen. It was pretty out-loud and out there for all to see. Trump himself promised it would be "wild".

Yet they forgot to have the coup at game time, or never gave it a thought.

If it was a coup...a for real one...why did they go home after the selfies? They went home because they were done what they came to do. Be violent and disruptive pricks. I truly don't think they had any objective beyond that.

Did your gun guy open fire on Capitol police, or did he...drum roll drum roll drum roll... do nothing, while appearing to be ready to do something?

All sizzle, no steak does not a coup make.

Okay, so am I correct, through this haze of emotional appeal, that you believe it was not a coup attempt because the insurrectionists were not organized?

No. And I'm hella bored with repeating it.

If so, I question what your definition of “organized”. Where they a coordinated group with military precision? No, of course not. However, did hundreds of people spontaneously and independently get it into their heads to storm the Capitol all with the expressed purpose of stopping the certification of the election? Or was there an organized effort to get this large group of people together, get them riled up, and aim them at the Capitol? Can you honestly say there wasn’t?

A very very semi-organized attempt to do just that, yes. And in that aim, I'm sure it was 100% successful. But yet again, turning a group of riled-up dogs loose is not a coup attempt. It is encouraging chaos and mayhem. That does not become a coup attempt unless the steps are taken to actually attempt the coup.

Letting your dogs off the leash in a City Hall meeting is not an attempt to overthrow your Mayor either. It's just havoc for havoc's sake.

 

[Random]

We've been over this several times. A few randoms wandering around with no coordination talking...repeat, only talking...about killing people is not a coup attempt.

Let's assume you are right, and that the Q-tips who said they were going to kill Pence and Pelosi and whoever else were a credible threat. Were P&P put on protective detail by the Secret Service? Was any further attempt made? Has anyone been charged with the very serious crime of attempted assassinations? Or are you saying the Feds...what, forgot to charge anyone or protect them?

The FBI concluded that there was no organized attempt to do anything. The rioters all wandered home for dinner that same night. It was not a coup attempt, standalone or in toto.

That excuses nothing. I have said more than once that they should be building new prisons to house each and every one of the J6ers for the foreseeable future. But we still have to call it what it is, not what sounds more damning and dramatic. We should be above that.

Have any of the swooners on the forum taken this obvious coup evidence to the FBI et al? You guys could go down in history for discovering it. Why wait to be in the history books? They could call it the Upchurch Unravelling, and teach kids about how randoms on the internet schooled the DOJ on what a coup is all about. Get back to us on how that went.

The violent mob was only a part of the coup attempt. Trump was aiming for a paper coup, with his legally bonkers plan of having Pence throw out the Electoral votes of multiple Democratic states, then having the state delegations vote Trump into office. The mob was just there to put pressure on the Republicans who didn’t want to go along with it (many were fine with it though).

Pence held his ground though, so the mob just made a mess and looked horrible.

The coup minimalists want us to focus on the loonies who stormed the capitol (who could have never realistically taken over the country), and dismiss the wacky legal shenanigans of Eastman and the rest (who could have taken over the country, at least on paper). But they were part and parcel of the same overall plan. Create a legal ****-storm, use the existence of the legal ****-storm to justify keeping Trump in power.

 

[digger]

These are some of the crimes that the capital insurrectionists have pled guilty toalready.

Jon Schaffer : Obstruction of an official proceeding; entering and remaining in a restricted building or grounds with a deadly or dangerous weapon

Paul Hodgkins : Obstruction of an official proceeding

Graydon Young : Two counts of conspiracy and one count of obstruction of Congress

Josiah Colt : Felony obstruction of Congress

Caleb Berry : Conspiracy and obstructing an official proceeding

Scott Fairlam : Obstruction of an official proceeding and assaulting; resisting or impeding certain officers

Devlyn Thompson : Assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers using a dangerous weapon

Duke Wilson : Assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers using a dangerous weapon; obstruction of an official proceeding

The obstruction makes it an attempted coup. The conspiracy makes it organized. The a assault and dangerous weapons make it violent.

So we have a (badly) organized violent insurrection, also a coup attempt. Cut. And. Dry.

 

[Thermal]

Your sarcastic tone is in bad taste, and should leave you embarrassed after this exchange. Being glib and wrong at the same time is a bad look.

Thanks for the thread-nanny lecture, noob. Some of us are flippant, even when discussing seriously. You might want to get used to it.

Welcome to the forum, btw!

You are presenting an argument from authority.

I am not. I am presenting a definition, and pointing out that J6 and the surrounding events do not fit it. That the relevant authorities agree with me thus far supports the position.

"According to court documents, Sandlin and DeGrave planned to interfere with the peaceful transition of presidential power"

Pretty straight forward really. I suggest you find another hill to die on.

Absolutely they intended to interfere. Agreed. That does not make it a coup. Is it that you don't understand the difference between dogs chasing cars, and dogs carjacking the car and raping the driver?

 

[Thermal]

The violent mob was only a part of the coup attempt. Trump was aiming for a paper coup, with his legally bonkers plan of having Pence throw out the Electoral votes of multiple Democratic states, then having the state delegations vote Trump into office. The mob was just there to put pressure on the Republicans who didn’t want to go along with it (many were fine with it though).

Pence held his ground though, so the mob just made a mess and looked horrible.

And I have great respect for him for this, if for nothing much else in his career.

The coup minimalists want us to focus on the loonies who stormed the capitol (who could have never realistically taken over the country), and dismiss the wacky legal shenanigans of Eastman and the rest (who could have taken over the country, at least on paper). But they were part and parcel of the same overall plan. Create a legal ****-storm, use the existence of the legal ****-storm to justify keeping Trump in power.

Yet Trump himself didn't back it. He slunk away. He went home and packed.

The legal wranglings had nothing coup-ish either. They begged the courts. The courts said nah. Trump complied.

Do you guys not get that that is actually the opposite of a coup??? They tried to work the system within its rules (comically), and submitted to the courts authority. Coups, um...don't care much about the legal process, pretty much by definition.

 

[Babbylonian]

The violent mob was only a part of the coup attempt. Trump was aiming for a paper coup, with his legally bonkers plan of having Pence throw out the Electoral votes of multiple Democratic states, then having the state delegations vote Trump into office. The mob was just there to put pressure on the Republicans who didn’t want to go along with it (many were fine with it though).

Pence held his ground though, so the mob just made a mess and looked horrible.

Don't leave out his personal appeals to the Georgia governor to "find" the votes to make him the winner and his continued entreaties to invalidate votes for Biden in other states (by recount or legislative fiat). Attempting to disrupt congressional validation of the election by using his ignorant/evil supporters was, as you say, just one part of the plan...the attempted coup.

 

[varwoche]

...Yet Trump himself didn't back it. He slunk away. He went home and packed.

The legal wranglings had nothing coup-ish either. They begged the courts. The courts said nah. Trump complied.

Do you guys not get that that is actually the opposite of a coup??? They tried to work the system within its rules (comically), and submitted to the courts authority. Coups, um...don't care much about the legal process, pretty much by definition.

You're minimizing Trump's actions, such as his threats against GA official for which he is being criminally investigated.