Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

[Upchurch]

[snip]

Blah blah blah. Your lips are flapping, but you aren’t saying anything.

Put up or shut up.

 

[Stacyhs]

Trump literally tried overthrow a legitimate democratic election up to and including provoking a violent mob attack on Congress and the Vice President as a means to interrupt and prevent the certification of his opponent’s win. An attack that, in some cases, made it within feet of where those congresspeople were. At the same time, he was trying to convince states decertify that same election based on nothing more than he didn’t win.

What more do you actually want to have happened in order for it to be an attempted coup? It literally fits every definition provided.

Aw, come on! You're not taking into account the "context and relative details" of a president calling an election 'rigged' with dead people voting, ballots being stuffed, and voting machines changing votes from Trump to Biden, or said president calling a S of S to just 'find' the exact number of votes that would give him the state. You're not taking into account the "context and detail" of telling a crowd of supporters in front of the Congress where the election is being certified to "Stop the Steal" and "You don't concede when there's theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore," "You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can't let that happen," and "If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore". When you put all that into context and give the details, you clearly don't have an attempted coup/insurrection. You only have that when you have people attacking a government building and its police shouting to kill the VP who failed to Stop the Steal and the Speaker of the House......oh, wait.........

 

[Craig4]

As Trotsky pointed out, a revolution (or in this case we substitute coup) requires the "Treason of the Clerks". In addition to the violence (provided by the enemy force that attacked the Capitol) you need the clerks or government functionaries to come to your side. What makes this a coup is that you had the violent force disrupting the functions of government and the staff working on finding a way to keep Trump in power at the same time. January 6th was a mutually supporting operation. The rioters were to buy time for the clerks to control the functions of government. Obviously, it didn't work but that doesn't mean it wasn't an attempted coup.

 

[Venom]

After following the thread for a couple months I wouldn't call it a coup either.

But the Republican (non)response, the spin from Radical Right media, and relative indifference of the public makes me believe a real coup attempt is frighteningly likely in the coming years.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

After following the thread for a couple months I wouldn't call it a coup either.

The more we learn, the clearer it becomes that it clearly was, planend in a War Room Trump set up for the purpose.

But the Republican (non)response, the spin from Radical Right media, and relative indifference of the public makes me believe a real coup attempt is frighteningly likely in the coming years.

It's not indifference, it's coordinated Active Measures to defend the indefensible.

 

[varwoche]

After following the thread for a couple months I wouldn't call it a coup either.

But the Republican (non)response, the spin from Radical Right media, and relative indifference of the public makes me believe a real coup attempt is frighteningly likely in the coming years.

It seems that people have preconceived notions of what a coup (attempt!) looks like -- notions that are at odds with the dictionary definition, and more importantly, at odds with the facts. This isn't Paraguay. There aren't generalissimos in white uniforms. Overthrowing an established democracy neccesarily takes a different form than overthrowing a banana republic.

 

[Upchurch]

It seems that people have preconceived notions of what a coup (attempt!) looks like -- notions that are at odds with the dictionary definition, and more importantly, at odds with the facts. This isn't Paraguay. There aren't generalissimos in white uniforms. Overthrowing an established democracy neccesarily takes a different form than overthrowing a banana republic.

That’s the vibe I’m getting. On a different social media platform, I had to explain to someone that you can have a coup (1) without shots being fired, (2) with weapons that are not guns, and (3) without any weapons at all. As a bonus, I explained that coups pre-existed guns.

That last one got me ignored.

 

[eerok]

The simple fact that Trump pressured Pence to subvert the certification process makes it an attempted coup. The storming of the Capital just raised it to a cartoon villain level. The ensuing flurry of bogus lawsuits was a display of desperate mental illness. If Trump could seize power today by somehow destroying the democratic process, he'd do it without thinking twice. It still is an attempted coup, pretty much ongoing, no matter how pathetic.

Yeah, but let's not judge him too harshly, lol.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The simple fact that Trump pressured Pence to subvert the certification process makes it an attempted coup. The storming of the Capital just raised it to a cartoon villain level. The ensuing flurry of bogus lawsuits was a display of desperate mental illness. If Trump could seize power today by somehow destroying the democratic process, he'd do it without thinking twice. It still is an attempted coup, pretty much ongoing, no matter how pathetic.

Yeah, but let's not judge him too harshly, lol.

Actually any planned disruption of the Peaceful Legal Transfer of Power can be considered a Conspiracy to Insurrection under the current laws. It doesn't even matter if an action against the Constitution occurs.

 

[Stacyhs]

The simple fact that Trump pressured Pence to subvert the certification process makes it an attempted coup. The storming of the Capital just raised it to a cartoon villain level. The ensuing flurry of bogus lawsuits was a display of desperate mental illness. If Trump could seize power today by somehow destroying the democratic process, he'd do it without thinking twice. It still is an attempted coup, pretty much ongoing, no matter how pathetic.

Yeah, but let's not judge him too harshly, lol.

Careful. I smell accusations of you being 'dramatic' wafting in.

 

[eerok]

Careful. I smell accusations of you being 'dramatic' wafting in.

I think I can weather the storm. I'll just take shelter in the facts.

 

[abaddon]

It seems that people have preconceived notions of what a coup (attempt!) looks like -- notions that are at odds with the dictionary definition, and more importantly, at odds with the facts. This isn't Paraguay. There aren't generalissimos in white uniforms. Overthrowing an established democracy neccesarily takes a different form than overthrowing a banana republic.

That’s the vibe I’m getting. On a different social media platform, I had to explain to someone that you can have a coup (1) without shots being fired, (2) with weapons that are not guns, and (3) without any weapons at all. As a bonus, I explained that coups pre-existed guns.

That last one got me ignored.

Julius Caesar. Coup, with no guns involved. And he came to power in a coup of his own in the first place.

 

[Warp12]

The best part is, the supposed leader of this "coup" is polling higher than Biden. Damn, how did the FBI get it so wrong? I mean, according to the thread title, this is "Trump's Coup", right?

FBI finds scant evidence U.S. Capitol attack was coordinated

The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials.
...

FBI investigators did find that cells of protesters, including followers of the far-right Oath Keepers and Proud Boys groups, had aimed to break into the Capitol. But they found no evidence that the groups had serious plans about what to do if they made it inside, the sources said.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ex...ol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20/

The FBI comes up empty-handed in its search for a Jan. 6 plot

More than 570 people have been arrested, but only 40 face conspiracy charges. Those charges are often based on prior discussions about trying to enter Congress or bringing material to use in the riot; some clearly came prepared for rioting with ropes, chemical irritants and other materials. Those cases, however, are a small group among the hundreds charged and an even smaller percentage among the tens of thousands of protesters on that day.

https://thehill.com/opinion/judicia...p-empty-handed-in-its-search-for-a-jan-6-plot

I suspect there will be a shortage of clown shoes at Amazon this holiday season. The ISF Dems have stockpiled them, apparently.



But, I love the family atmosphere and support. Don't miss out on this opportunity to convince each other of how right you are. Or, to at least give each other a good liberal stroking.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The best part is, the supposed leader of this "coup" is polling higher than Biden. Damn, how did the FBI get it so wrong? I mean, according to the thread title, this is "Trump's Coup", right?

FBI finds scant evidence U.S. Capitol attack was coordinated



https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ex...ol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20/

The FBI comes up empty-handed in its search for a Jan. 6 plot



https://thehill.com/opinion/judicia...p-empty-handed-in-its-search-for-a-jan-6-plot

I suspect there will be a shortage of clown shoes at Amazon this holiday season. The ISF Dems have stockpiled them, apparently.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_6426261a01ce0c95bf.jpg[/qimg]

But, I love the family atmosphere and support. Don't miss out on this opportunity to convince each other of how right you are. Or, to at least give each other a good liberal stroking.

There is scant evidence that there was a well organized attack on the Capitol, that doesn't mean there was no attempt to Inspire idiots into an Insurrection.

 

[Upchurch]

[blah snip blah]

If you're going to mindlessly parrot other people's arguments, I'll just repost my reply over again:

Okay, so am I correct, through this haze of emotional appeal, that you believe it was not a coup attempt because the insurrectionists were not organized? If so, I question what your definition of “organized”. Where they a coordinated group with military precision? No, of course not. However, did hundreds of people spontaneously and independently get it into their heads to storm the Capitol all with the expressed purpose of stopping the certification of the election? Or was there an organized effort to get this large group of people together, get them riled up, and aim them at the Capitol? Can you honestly say there wasn’t?

 

[Stacyhs]

The best part is, the supposed leader of this "coup" is polling higher than Biden. Damn, how did the FBI get it so wrong? I mean, according to the thread title, this is "Trump's Coup", right?

FBI finds scant evidence U.S. Capitol attack was coordinated



https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ex...ol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20/

The FBI comes up empty-handed in its search for a Jan. 6 plot



https://thehill.com/opinion/judicia...p-empty-handed-in-its-search-for-a-jan-6-plot

I suspect there will be a shortage of clown shoes at Amazon this holiday season. The ISF Dems have stockpiled them, apparently.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_6426261a01ce0c95bf.jpg[/qimg]

But, I love the family atmosphere and support. Don't miss out on this opportunity to convince each other of how right you are. Or, to at least give each other a good liberal stroking.

You might want to get a pair for yourself and a can of orange spray tan while you're at it. I'll see your FBI "according to four current and former law enforcement officials" findings and raise you one Univ. of IL Cline Center's Coup D’état Project :

It Was an Attempted Coup: The Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project Categorizes the January 6, 2021 Assault on the US Capitol

Bottom Line: Using the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project definitions, the storming of the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021 was an attempted coup d’état: an organized, illegal attempt to intervene in the presidential transition by displacing the power of the Congress to certify the election. Specifically, at the time of this writing, we classify it as an attempted dissident coup.

January 27, 2021

The Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project is the world’s largest global registry of failed and successful coups. The Cline Center defines a coup as an “organized effort to effect sudden and irregular (e.g., illegal or extra-legal) removal of the incumbent executive authority of a national government, or to displace the authority of the highest levels of one or more branches of government.” To be categorized as a coup, an event must meet the following criteria (which are detailed at greater length in the Coup D’état Project codebook):

1. There must be some person or persons who initiated the coup.
2.The target of the coup must have meaningful control over national policy.
3.There must be a credible threat to the leaders' hold on power.
4.Illegal or irregular means must be used to seize, remove, or render
powerless the target of the coup.
5.It must be an organized effort.

As explained in the Cline Center’s provisional statement, the storming of the US Capitol on January 6th clearly met the first three definitional criteria: one or more persons posed a credible threat to the power of the legislative branch to determine national policy. However, it was unclear at that time whether the attackers were trying to merely disrupt the process of governing or were attempting to change who controls the government. It was also unclear whether the assault on the Capitol was spontaneous, or had been organized in advance.

Over the past few weeks, Cline Center researchers have reviewed voluminous reporting about the event, including official documents, quotes from participants, and analysis of details in videos and images. This additional evidence clearly demonstrates that the two remaining criteria were met.

About the Cline Center and the Coup D’état Project

The Cline Center for Advanced Social Research is a nonpartisan research center at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign with over a decade of experience in systematically categorizing acts of protest and political violence around the world. Since its initial public release in 2013, the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project has aimed to document every coup, attempted coup, and coup conspiracy anywhere in the world since 1945. Version 2.0 of the dataset encompasses 943 events, including 426 realized coups, 336 attempts, and 181 conspiracies that occurred between 1945 and 2019. It is the largest global registry of these destabilizing events.

 

[tyr_13]

It seems that people have preconceived notions of what a coup (attempt!) looks like -- notions that are at odds with the dictionary definition, and more importantly, at odds with the facts. This isn't Paraguay. There aren't generalissimos in white uniforms. Overthrowing an established democracy neccesarily takes a different form than overthrowing a banana republic.

A lot of it isn't even that it looks different from banana republic coups but that coups to them are something that only happens in banana republics.

The actual facts aren't close here, but it's hard for some to believe it is something that came so close to happening here. That...would make the US like other countries and not divinely protected!

 

[Warp12]

You might want to get a pair for yourself and a can of orange spray tan while you're at it. I'll see your FBI "according to four current and former law enforcement officials" findings and raise you one Univ. of IL Cline Center's Coup D’état Project :

That is dated 1/27/21. Well before the FBI investigation.

Comical.

 

[tyr_13]

Warp's 'reasoning' is horribly dumb all the way down.

You don't need to plan to attempt a coup. If Trump had spoken to no one and planned nothing but walked into the Capitol and declared martial law, that's a coup attempt.

You don't need to be in on a coup's plan to be part of a coup. Any general in the above example who went along wouldn't have been coordinating directly in any pre-planning, but would inarguably be part of a coup. Freaking duh.

Likewise one doesn't even have to be aware you're taking part in a coup. The people who were there on Jan 6th who marched to the Capitol but didn't storm it were still putting pressure on Pence to declare the votes invalid, which was part of the coup's plan. They were playing a part in it without necessarily being aware that's what they were doing.

But the reasoning gets even more amoeba brained when the reasoning is some of them coordinated insurrection that furthered a coup attempt, but that doesn't count because most of them didn't. WTF?

They took concrete steps in furtherance of a goal, and that goal was the illegal seizing of the power of the government, which had a plausible mechanisms of success. This was a a coup attempt and the insurrectionists were part of a coup attempt whether or not they wanted to be.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Warp's 'reasoning' is horribly dumb all the way down.

You don't need to plan to attempt a coup. If Trump had spoken to no one and planned nothing but walked into the Capitol and declared martial law, that's a coup attempt.

You don't need to be in on a coup's plan to be part of a coup. Any general in the above example who went along wouldn't have been coordinating directly in any pre-planning, but would inarguably be part of a coup. Freaking duh.

Likewise one doesn't even have to be aware you're taking part in a coup. The people who were there on Jan 6th who marched to the Capitol but didn't storm it were still putting pressure on Pence to declare the votes invalid, which was part of the coup's plan. They were playing a part in it without necessarily being aware that's what they were doing.

But the reasoning gets even more amoeba brained when the reasoning is some of them coordinated insurrection that furthered a coup attempt, but that doesn't count because most of them didn't. WTF?

They took concrete steps in furtherance of a goal, and that goal was the illegal seizing of the power of the government, which had a plausible mechanisms of success. This was a a coup attempt and the insurrectionists were part of a coup attempt whether or not they wanted to be.

What they planned was a battle with Antifa and BLM, But Antifa and BLM were warned not to show and give Trump reason to declare the Insurrection act. In other words by announcing their desires they Screwed themselves.