Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

[tyr_13]

So why does the FBI disagree with you about all this conspiracy evidence?

reuters.com

This is a silly red-herrring. You're making it seem like if they weren't all in on a directly planned conspiracy that they weren't there to prevent the lawful transfer of power. That's not what it means. They were there for the latter, even if they were not part of the former. Personal coordination beforehand simply isn't a requirement.

Again, just to make my position clear. I'm not defending anyone that took part in the riot. Every single one them needs to be prosecuted. It needs to be made perfectly clear that there is never a time in America for political violence.

I'll disagree. If they had been successful then violence to remedy that would have been completely justified. The GOP would have called that 'political' just like they call normal public health measures 'political' and teaching actual proven history 'political' and everything they don't like 'political'.

On the other hand, to take the media position that the riot was a revolution, that there was a vast right wing conspiracy to take over the country by having a riot at the capitol is complete nonsense. It's right up there with the moon is an illusion, or JFK was killed by the CIA, or the collusion truthers.

The rioters attempting insurrection was not a part of the right-wing plan to take over the country. That plan was to have Pence not certify the election then make the House vote to keep Trump the president. You're attempting to dismiss the very real danger of the latter, which you and the right wing would have went along with based on all your and their reactions since, by downplaying the planning of the former. It's not a strong argument. This is doubly so when your evidence is 'well the off-hand guess by this guy is that only 5% of them were in on a plan beforehand.'

Saying, 'I'm not defending them' but then downplaying the danger and spinning how many were in on the planning as somehow mitigating isn't a valid argument. Just asserting you're not defending them doesn't mean much.

Billons of dollars in property damage last year and dozens of people killed. Let me guess, all Antifa/BLM members are secret right wingers like all the segregationists were, right?

What are you on about again? This doesn't address what you are quoting and is just a vapid handwave. Being against fascist and racism is left wing now? Alright, fine.

You do know how much of the damage and rioting was planned by the right wing militias?

The apologetics for the right wing destroying our institutions and our elections is weak. The insurrectionists were attempting insurrection. They were bad at it and most were not in on the plan but that doesn't change what they were doing. Most political violence is from the right, and the BLM unrest doesn't change that. You want antifa to get under control? Start controlling the fascists on the right.

The tedious reality denial of the right doesn't become respectable no matter how much one cries that the media is being hyperbolic even if they were being so.

 

[Stacyhs]

Exactly right. That's what I honestly don't understand. The riot was bad enough by itself. The people involved need to be prosecuted. The whole thing of trying to turn it into "This is the worst attack that has ever happened in the history of the world. This is worse than the Civil War, Pearl Harbor and 9/11 put together!" just lessens the impact of it because at that point who's going to take you seriously?

No one is doing that. The committee is investigating what roles Trump and others, specifically those in the T. administration, played in what culminated on Jan. 6. No one is saying there was a central, organized coup. Tone down the hyperbole.

 

[Worm]

It needs to be made perfectly clear that there is never a time in America for political violence.

Surely America was founded through political violence? Maybe the revolution doesn't count, but it sure feels like politically-motivated violence. History is written by the winners of course.

 

[Warp12]

No one is doing that. The committee is investigating what roles Trump and others, specifically those in the T. administration, played in what culminated on Jan. 6. No one is saying there was a central, organized coup. Tone down the hyperbole.

Even calling it a "coup" is a bit much (like the thread title is), imo. More like a bunch of idiots rioting...combined with some really poor security measures.

 

[Stacyhs]

Even calling it a "coup" is a bit much (like the thread title is), imo. More like a bunch of idiots rioting...combined with some really poor security measures.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_6426260e7a5d642cbf.jpg[/qimg]

Their intent was to stop the certification of the election results which was part of getting the election overturned to install Trump as president. It was part of an attempted coup no matter how disorganized it was.

'We won this election, and we won it by a landslide"

'We will stop the steal"

'We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn't happen'

'If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore'

Trump Jan 6

'Let's have trial by combat' over election -Giuliani

"start taking names and kicking a---.” Brooks

 

[Warp12]

Their intent was to stop the certification of the election results which was part of getting the election overturned to install Trump as president. It was part of an attempted coup no matter how disorganized it was.

I think that for a large portion of the group, the intent was to take selfies...and maybe steal a podium, or something.

Let's face it...this was an unorganized group of retards, acting on impulse. And, poor security measures led to their "success".

Calling this a "coup" is an insult to any real coup in history.

 

[eerok]

Let's face it...this was an unorganized group of retards [...]

Welcome to the modern GOP.

 

[Stacyhs]

I think that for a large portion of the group, the intent was to take selfies...and maybe steal a podium, or something.

Let's face it...this was an unorganized group of retards, acting on impulse. And, poor security measures led to their "success".

Calling this a "coup" is an insult to any real coup in history.

Continue to downplay it like the vast majority of Republicans and other conservatives. Just a normal bunch of tourist "hugging and kissing".

 

[Warp12]

Continue to downplay it like the vast majority of Republicans and other conservatives. Just a normal bunch of tourist "hugging and kissing".

Whatever. Maybe they can nail some more of these folks with "Egregious Parading", or whatever that last chick got.

 

[Stacyhs]

Whatever. Maybe they can nail some more of these folks with "Egregious Parading", or whatever that last chick got.

Whatever. You do realize the more serious militia members are going to go down for far more than 'egregious parading', don't you? Hmmmm, maybe you don't. But you be you.

 

[Segnosaur]

Even calling it a "coup" is a bit much (like the thread title is), imo.

You are right. A more accurate term would be "Terrorist Activity".

More like a bunch of idiots rioting...combined with some really poor security measures.

Yes... poor security measures that need to be investigated to see why there was such a poor response.

An investigation that is being hampered by Trump and his cronies. Hmmm... isn't THAT a convenient coincidence.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Whatever. You do realize the more serious militia members are going to go down for far more than 'egregious parading', don't you? Hmmmm, maybe you don't. But you be you.

He conveniently ignores the violence perpetrated by those people....

 

[Stacyhs]

He conveniently ignores the violence perpetrated by those people....

You only have so much time in a day. You often have to choose between lesser threats like violence against the Capitol police and Congressmembers when attacking the Capitol and greater threats from a fat, ugly, self-mutilating freak transsexual who endorses harming children in gender experiments.

 

[Craig4]

People who don't see January 6th as a coup attempt aren't looking at is as part of everything else Trump and his conspirators were doing to keep him in the presidency. The enemy attack on the Capitol was the most visible action taken but it was intended to buy time for the efforts to get new slates of electors. Even after the enemy was repulsed, Guiliani was trying to get Senators to delay the counting of the ballots.

I suspect the members of the enemy who were filmed looking for ballots were part of a more advanced plot to delay certification. Had the House Parliamentarian not instructed the rest of the staff to take the boxes with them as they evacuated, they might have delayed the counting for a couple of days. I think we all know what Trump and his coup plotters would have tried to do with those two days.

 

[Babbylonian]

People who don't see January 6th as a coup attempt aren't looking at is as part of everything else Trump and his conspirators were doing to keep him in the presidency. The enemy attack on the Capitol was the most visible action taken but it was intended to buy time for the efforts to get new slates of electors. Even after the enemy was repulsed, Guiliani was trying to get Senators to delay the counting of the ballots.

I suspect the members of the enemy who were filmed looking for ballots were part of a more advanced plot to delay certification. Had the House Parliamentarian not instructed the rest of the staff to take the boxes with them as they evacuated, they might have delayed the counting for a couple of days. I think we all know what Trump and his coup plotters would have tried to do with those two days.

I strongly disagree with the highlighted. They are liars who know exactly what was going on. The lies are designed to not only generally excuse Trump and the other scum who organized the assault on the Capitol but also to give them license to try it again the next time they lose an election.

 

[Thermal]

I strongly disagree with the highlighted. They are liars who know exactly what was going on. The lies are designed to not only generally excuse Trump and the other scum who organized the assault on the Capitol but also to give them license to try it again the next time they lose an election.

Maybe some Q-tips and their ilk think that way. For many of us, it's simply using an incorrect term.

If someone is raped, you don't crow that they were hit by a car. That doesn't defend or excuse the rapist. It defends the language.

A coup, at its most basic level, is the wresting or seizing of power. The Trumpsters begged and pleaded and demanded, but ultimately hung their empty heads and did what they were told to do. It was a large scale tantrum, not a viable threat to power. They had no means of success.

The Dildo Stomers on Jan6 didn't know what the **** they were doing. There was a half-assed idea of doing...something. They put up an opening volley that they were attempting something, but then quietly went home unimpeded. The actual show of power went on.

If you think that all of that together was a coup attempt, then you are irrational. How can you fight against (or prevent) the next rapist when you can't tell the difference between a rape and a car wreck?

 

[tyr_13]

Maybe some Q-tips and their ilk think that way. For many of us, it's simply using an incorrect term.

If someone is raped, you don't crow that they were hit by a car. That doesn't defend or excuse the rapist. It defends the language.

A coup, at its most basic level, is the wresting or seizing of power. The Trumpsters begged and pleaded and demanded, but ultimately hung their empty heads and did what they were told to do. It was a large scale tantrum, not a viable threat to power. They had no means of success.
The Dildo Stomers on Jan6 didn't know what the **** they were doing. There was a half-assed idea of doing...something. They put up an opening volley that they were attempting something, but then quietly went home unimpeded. The actual show of power went on.

If you think that all of that together was a coup attempt, then you are irrational. How can you fight against (or prevent) the next rapist when you can't tell the difference between a rape and a car wreck?

Yes they did. If Pence had went along, so would the 'reasonable Republicans', the House would have installed Trump and the Supreme Court would have stuck with it. Even if not that, if Pence went along it would have been the OK for more violence 'defending AMERICA!' and the teams that brought guns and were waiting for orders would have come in. 'Reasonable Republicans', even on these boards, would at first be shocked, but then defend the violence and look for a 'compromise' that left the GOP in power and with the presidency.

Or half a dozen other ways. 'But that's all illegal!' So what? Who would stop them? A third of the US would be on their side and fully supportive of the coup violence, a third would be citing the laws, and then the rest would be split between using violence to oppose the coup and the 'Enlightened Moderates ^TM' who want to call all sides equally wrong in practice.

The actual people who stormed the Capitol were not the only nor primary threat. They were not alone.

 

[Thermal]

Yes they did. If Pence had went along, so would the 'reasonable Republicans', the House would have installed Trump and the Supreme Court would have stuck with it. Even if not that, if Pence went along it would have been the OK for more violence 'defending AMERICA!' and the teams that brought guns and were waiting for orders would have come in. 'Reasonable Republicans', even on these boards, would at first be shocked, but then defend the violence and look for a 'compromise' that left the GOP in power and with the presidency.

"If if if". If things were different, they'd be different.

That's a pretty massive "if", btw. It amounts to "if Pence initiated a coup". Well, yeah. And if Guilanni initiated a coup, or Alex Jones, or that Queen of Canada person....sure. If if if. The thing is, when the rubber hit the road, their own leader wasn't een in their corner, much less the second fiddle. And your massive "if" carries another even more massive "if": everyone else would have to play along. Every Congressperson, security, police, military, the works. And that's if Pence played along, which would have been an actual coup attempt.

Or half a dozen other ways. 'But that's all illegal!' So what? Who would stop them? A third of the US would be on their side and fully supportive of the coup violence, a third would be citing the laws, and then the rest would be split between using violence to oppose the coup and the 'Enlightened Moderates ^TM' who want to call all sides equally wrong in practice.

The actual people who stormed the Capitol were not the only nor primary threat. They were not alone.

I hear you, but I don't think you are being realistic about the pushback. Take the military, for instance. They swore to uphold the Constitution. You could count on widespread mutiny within the ranks. A lot of Trumpsters are cowards. A lot of talk about putting Sec Clinton in jail, but push come to shove, their tails are between their legs.

As I said upthread, this wasn't an actual coup attempt. The next one might be. It will.likely be far, far more subtle. That's what I'm watching for.

 

[tyr_13]

"If if if". If things were different, they'd be different.

In other words they very much DID have a way to succeed.

That's a pretty massive "if", btw. It amounts to "if Pence initiated a coup".

No, if Pence went along with the already in process coup attempt. If you're trying to get people to overthrow the government over the will of the people, that's a coup attempt already. And in this case, it was a coup attempt that had a really good chance at working.

Well, yeah. And if Guilanni initiated a coup, or Alex Jones, or that Queen of Canada person....sure. If if if. The thing is, when the rubber hit the road, their own leader wasn't een in their corner, much less the second fiddle. And your massive "if" carries another even more massive "if": everyone else would have to play along. Every Congressperson, security, police, military, the works. And that's if Pence played along, which would have been an actual coup attempt.

Nope, not everyone. It would have taken just a couple more, not everyone. A lot of the Dems in Congress would have been dead remember. The insurrectionists already made it to them without using the guns they brought, and stopped only when a single cop fired. A few of the 'strike teams' that were there with rifles walking up would have been all it took. If Pence had been going along with it, they would have come in. That isn't 'everyone', it is the people who already were plus one. The police were already overtaken apart from the actual chamber.

I hear you, but I don't think you are being realistic about the pushback. Take the military, for instance. They swore to uphold the Constitution. You could count on widespread mutiny within the ranks. A lot of Trumpsters are cowards. A lot of talk about putting Sec Clinton in jail, but push come to shove, their tails are between their legs.

As I said upthread, this wasn't an actual coup attempt. The next one might be. It will.likely be far, far more subtle. That's what I'm watching for.

I don't think you're being realistic about how vile the GOP is. Follow the evidence. Some denounced the Jan 6th violence...at first. Now they're making excuses for it, calling the insurrectionists political prisoners, the works.

The military would have just 'stayed out of it', violating their oaths for sure, but with 'plausible' deniability. This would have kept most of the Trump loyalists in the military from doing much, but it also would have kept the rest of the military from helping defend the nation either.

 

[Armitage72]

No, if Pence went along with the already in process coup attempt. If you're trying to get people to overthrow the government over the will of the people, that's a coup attempt already. And in this case, it was a coup attempt that had a really good chance at working.

"Attempted murder coup? Now honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry?"