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Trump's Coup d'état.

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Emily's Cat said:
Actually... it pretty much was the same thing. It's speculation based on belief.

Pragmatically, it's not going to happen. The electors aren't going to be faithless and put Trump in office. The states aren't going to replace their electors with those that will be faithless and vote for Trump. The military isn't going to back a coup. At the very worst, come January, the secret service will escort a very grumpy Trump out of the white house.
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I would pay to watch that live.
 
Vixen said:
I would pay to watch that live.
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"Where would you like us to put these boxes Mr. President?"

"I'm not moving out. I WON THE ELECTION!"

"Of course you did. I'll place them by the door, the Chief Usher and his staff will be here at 9am to pack everything up for you, so be dressed by then, okay? Great. See you later!"
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Upon further investigation: All the tedious details for anyone interested.
Bottom line: IOW, without MI and GA, Biden still wins.

IMO if these idiots go against their electorate it won't work out well for them, especially given it's no more than an empty gesture.
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It seems that the argument goes something like this...

Republicans wouldn't do something like that....
....evidence is provided of US Senators doing something like that

State Republicans wouldn't do something like that....
....evidence is provided of State senators doing something like that

Well even if they manage it in one state, it won't make a difference.......



My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. The GOP is still firmly behind President Trump nationally, at a state level and with local activists.
 
timhau said:
He has been successful in conning people into thinking that he is a successful businessman. He even managed to leverage that into a reality TV show which actually made him money.
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He cons people but always only for a limited time. When people get a look behind the curtain like seeing Trump is not a skilled POTUS, people are dying, most* of them recognize the con.

*Currently that 'most' is only 7.75 million more than the voters who are still buying into the con. But it is more than half.
 
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The Don said:
It seems that the argument goes something like this...

Republicans wouldn't do something like that....
....evidence is provided of US Senators doing something like that

State Republicans wouldn't do something like that....
....evidence is provided of State senators doing something like that

Well even if they manage it in one state, it won't make a difference.......

My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. The GOP is still firmly behind President Trump nationally, at a state level and with local activists.
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You seriously understate the evidence Trump will be out on Jan 20 if not sooner.

You said he'd win the election IIRC. He didn't.
 
Mumbles said:
"Where would you like us to put these boxes Mr. President?"

"I'm not moving out. I WON THE ELECTION!"

"Of course you did. I'll place them by the door, the Chief Usher and his staff will be here at 9am to pack everything up for you, so be dressed by then, okay? Great. See you later!"
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Skeptic Ginger said:
You seriously understate the evidence Trump will be out on Jan 20 if not sooner.

You said he'd win the election IIRC. He didn't.
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I said I thought he had a good chance of winning the election, and have done so throughout his term. He seems to have got much closer than expected - worryingly so.

I also said that I thought that there was a non-zero chance that even having "lost" the election, President Trump would be able to overturn the result. The noises coming from the most senior members of the GOP nationally, the actions of the GOP in locally and at a state level and the pronouncements of several members of SCOTUS indicate that he would have considerable support in attempting this
 
The Hill: Republicans start turning the page on Trump era
Top Republicans are starting to acknowledge publicly that Joe Biden will be the next president of the United States, turning the page on the Trump era.

Congressional Republicans and even a high-ranking White House official have, in recent days, referred to the upcoming change in administration.

National security adviser Robert O’Brien promised a “professional transition” of power, saying it looks like Biden has won the election....

Sen. James Risch (R-Idaho), chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, acknowledged Biden’s victory in an interview with The Spokesman-Review, based in Spokane, Wash. ...

Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) on Monday afternoon referred to Biden as the president-elect. ...

Sen. Roger Wicker (R-Miss.) said it would make sense to give Biden access to intelligence briefings....

Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) said he didn’t see any evidence that addressing any incidents of voter fraud or miscounted ballots would be enough to erase Biden’s lead in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin and other key battleground states. ...

On Sunday, Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine (R) told CNN “it’s clear that — certainly based on what we know now — that Joe Biden is the president-elect” and argued “it’s important” that a normal transition of power begin. ...

One Republican senator predicted that more GOP colleagues would acknowledge Biden as president-elect this week. ...
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Michigan county reverses course, votes unanimously to certify election results
The board of canvassers in Michigan’s largest county reversed course late Tuesday, voting unanimously to certify the election results after initially being deadlocked in a party-line vote.

The Michigan secretary of state’s office confirmed that the Wayne County Board of Canvassers voted by a 4-0 margin to certify the election results in Wayne County, which is heavily Democratic and includes Detroit, and that the board is requesting that Jocelyn Benson, the state’s top elections official, investigate any discrepancies in vote totals.
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It's over. It's time to start talking about Trump leaving. We need to stop repeating the fear mongering Trump is trying to make people believe. He's a con man. He's a loser. He's flailing.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
It's over. It's time to start talking about Trump leaving. We need to stop repeating the fear mongering Trump is trying to make people believe. He's a con man. He's a loser. He's flailing.
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He is trying to make people believe he won.

He is not trying to tell people he is trying to overturn the legitimate result of the election.

Some of us here are pointing out that he is trying to do that.

You think that pointing out this fact is fear mongering. It is stating pure facts. Nothing more.
 
angrysoba said:
He is trying to make people believe he won.

He is not trying to tell people he is trying to overturn the legitimate result of the election.

Some of us here are pointing out that he is trying to do that.

You think that pointing out this fact is fear mongering. It is stating pure facts. Nothing more.
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Not everyone is on the page you describe.

There is a way to frame what Trump is doing without falling victim to the con.

I'm pointing that out.

As far as I can tell I'm the only one pointing out his con is a fail. If one wants to describe his con, say so. If you think he's succeeding, say so but present evidence that is the case.

Trump says he's succeeding. The msn reports on his claims with little contradicting of that except to say he's making false claims. That's a start and it's better than they did in 2016 where they were unknowingly complicit.

Do you believe Trump is succeeding?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
There are whack-jobs in state legislatures, I know that. We've had some doozies here in WA.

But the idea the governors and legislators in the states that matter would sacrifice their states' voters on the alter of Trump doesn't fit the evidence.
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Sure, see the whole response to Corona virus. Nope no sacrificing people to trump's ego there.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Not everyone is on the page you describe.

There is a way to frame what Trump is doing without falling victim to the con.

I'm pointing that out.

As far as I can tell I'm the only one pointing out his con is a fail. If one wants to describe his con, say so. If you think he's succeeding, say so but present evidence that is the case.

Trump says he's succeeding. The msn reports on his claims with little contradicting of that except to say he's making false claims. That's a start and it's better than they did in 2016 where they were unknowingly complicit.

Do you believe Trump is succeeding?
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I am saying he is attempting a coup. I am explicitly saying exactly this.

I said that your position is "Relax, it is only an attempted coup".

I don't think anyone doubts he is incompetent and likely cannot pull this off, but it is an attempted coup.
 
angrysoba said:
I am saying he is attempting a coup. I am explicitly saying exactly this.

I said that your position is "Relax, it is only an attempted coup".

I don't think anyone doubts he is incompetent and likely cannot pull this off, but it is an attempted coup.
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Yeah, it's a little baffling. Like letting an attempted murder suspect go due to incompetence. But then, what can be done when he apparently has almost half the country on his side and most of the GOP is too scared to rein him in?
 
Olmstead said:
Yeah, it's a little baffling. Like letting an attempted murder suspect go due to incompetence. But then, what can be done when he apparently has almost half the country on his side and most of the GOP is too scared to rein him in?
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It's actually a bit worse than that. You're speaking in the past tense, as if someone had taken a shot and missed. But right now the "suspect" is still shooting, and we're all like, "Man, that guy's a bad shot. When he runs out of ammo, we should really do something about him...."
 
Horatius said:
But right now the "suspect" is still shooting, and we're all like, "Man, that guy's a bad shot. When he runs out of ammo, we should really do something about him...."
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Actually, some are even saying "When he runs out of ammo, we should probably just let him wander off, because he's sure not to cause any more trouble."

Dave
 
The Don said:
It seems that the argument goes something like this...

Republicans wouldn't do something like that....
....evidence is provided of US Senators doing something like that

State Republicans wouldn't do something like that....
....evidence is provided of State senators doing something like that

Well even if they manage it in one state, it won't make a difference.......



My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. The GOP is still firmly behind President Trump nationally, at a state level and with local activists.
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I'm encouraged by the fact that the Republican leadership has said they won't seat their own electors in both Pennsylvania and Michigan. What concerns me though is that is mostly based on them adhering to political norms. While admirable that they aren't bowing to pressure, all it would take next time this happens would be a few people not as resistant to pressure. This election should be a wake up call that in the short term, we need to shore up our election systems to force the implementation of the will of the people. In the long run, we need to get rid of the electoral college. These games wouldn't matter if the presidency went to the winner of the most popular votes.
 
The Don said:
My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. The GOP is still firmly behind President Trump nationally, at a state level and with local activists.
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We can call it fear mongering but perhaps fear is the proper response. You need to treat a real danger as real in order to manage it. The notion that it magically "can't happen here" because of reasons is an awful framing. Acknowledging that it could happen here is the proper framing.

I think he's unlikely to get away with it. Unlikely does not mean impossible, however (though it asymptotically approaches impossible with every passing day). He should not get a pass for his incompetence though: he is attempting a coup (and yes, it counts even if he's not, presumably, counting on the military stepping in —I think it has only been Skeptic Ginger who brought up military support as if somehow it was implied or needed).

We have gotten lucky in that this election was not close and that, rather than some alleged decency of state level Republicans, is at least one thing that has kept the sort of shenanigans needed to overturn the election at bay. Trump was not even very subtle about telegraphing an exclusive focus on Pennsylvania & their initial moves were consistent with that. However, the results we got require overturning more than PA, which they clearly had not expected nor planned for (turning the whole enterprise into this bizarrely incompetent improvisational effort now led by the inimitably deranged Giuliani).

Right now, the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented & certified their county results because of public pressure. That pressure, presumably premised on outrage at this attempted coup, is as it should be (it's good that everyone did not simply ignore it because it allegedly couldn't succeed). Others are watching what happened with this canvassing board and the fact that it went down as it did matters. If, instead, this had turned into a weeks long certification standoff it also would have mattered (having the effect of possibly emboldening others). GOP politicians are on standby because they are trying to figure out what other GOP politicians are trying to do. Hopefully, this will collapse like a house of cards at some point (but it should not be treated as some sort of inevitability).

Calling it a con, is not helpful We all know it's a con. It can be both a con and an attempted coup. It can even be a con and successful. Just look at these last 4 years: if his presidential campaign was a con (which I think it was: I think it is likely that the presidency did not even particularly interest him), then it was a successful con.
 
cosmicaug said:
We can call it fear mongering but perhaps fear is the proper response. You need to treat a real danger as real in order to manage it. The notion that it magically "can't happen here" because of reasons is an awful framing. Acknowledging that it could happen here is the proper framing.

I think he's unlikely to get away with it. Unlikely does not mean impossible, however (though it asymptotically approaches impossible with every passing day). He should not get a pass for his incompetence though: he is attempting a coup (and yes, it counts even if he's not, presumably, counting on the military stepping in —I think it has only been Skeptic Ginger who brought up military support as if somehow it was implied or needed).

We have gotten lucky in that this election was not close and that, rather than some alleged decency of state level Republicans, is at least one thing that has kept the sort of shenanigans needed to overturn the election at bay. Trump was not even very subtle about telegraphing an exclusive focus on Pennsylvania & their initial moves were consistent with that. However, the results we got require overturning more than PA, which they clearly had not expected nor planned for (turning the whole enterprise into this bizarrely incompetent improvisational effort now led by the inimitably deranged Giuliani).

Right now, the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented & certified their county results because of public pressure. That pressure, presumably premised on outrage at this attempted coup, is as it should be (it's good that everyone did not simply ignore it because it allegedly couldn't succeed). Others are watching what happened with this canvassing board and the fact that it went down as it did matters. If, instead, this had turned into a weeks long certification standoff it also would have mattered (having the effect of possibly emboldening others). GOP politicians are on standby because they are trying to figure out what other GOP politicians are trying to do. Hopefully, this will collapse like a house of cards at some point (but it should not be treated as some sort of inevitability).

Calling it a con, is not helpful We all know it's a con. It can be both a con and an attempted coup. It can even be a con and successful. Just look at these last 4 years: if his presidential campaign was a con (which I think it was: I think it is likely that the presidency did not even particularly interest him), then it was a successful con.
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It should be noted that for the MAGA morons, the fact that the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented is proof of conspiracy 'cause they were doxed and threatened to change their votes. Thus, that incident will be taken as evidence of the Democrats stealing the election by roughly half the voter base.

The reason for that many people being so detached from reality is the coup Trump and his cronies are attempting. They effectively control the information received by half the voter base.
 
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