Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[JoeMorgue]

Am I the only one here who doesn't claim to have a gender identity?

I don't. I'm... okay not offended but annoyed at the times I've been told "No you're wrong you have one it just magically lines up with what you are so you never noticed it" or some variation.

I don't identify as a man anymore then I do as left handed, 5 foot 9, or blue eyes. I just AM those things. There's no "identity" attached to any of it.

Now a person could say "I'm a man but I want to be a woman" and that would make 100% perfect sense and be zero confusing and part of me still wants to think that's all this is but that's not dramatic enough of a way to put it for some people.

 

[d4m10n]

Now a person could say "I'm a man but I want to be a woman" and that would make 100% perfect sense and be zero confusing and part of me still wants to think that's all this is but that's not dramatic enough of a way to put it for some people.

A surprising number of the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria come down to the highlighted part, e.g. "deep desire to transform into another gender."

Am I the only one here who doesn't claim to have a gender identity?

I'm somewhat less agnostic about gender identity than I am about having a soul, but not by too much. I wouldn't say that I identify with my (sperm-producing) body as much as I am my body and on a good day that's just fine.

 

[JoeMorgue]

A surprising number of the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria come down to the highlighted part, e.g. "deep desire to transform into another gender."

Then why the **** not just leave it at that, define it as that, accept it as that, and NONE OF THIS WOULD BE ANYWHERE NEAR THIS DIFFICULT FOR NO REASON!

But noooooooooooo. That's not good enough. It can't be a simple want that everyone could understand.

No much better to give your genitals an otherkin persona.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

I claim you have a gender identity whether you want it or not. And you don't get to decide it on your own.

How many of them are there, and how do I decide which one I have?

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

I don't identify as a man anymore then I do as left handed, 5 foot 9, or blue eyes. I just AM those things. There's no "identity" attached to any of it.

Taking that approach even further, I don't even identify as a human being.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm still 100% lost as to "identity" in context being used here even means.

Much like the sex/gender thing there are things you are, objective factors/qualities you have whether you like it or not, it's just not up for debate and things you want to have, strive to have and everything, everything about you falls into one of those two categories and this entire discussions sounds like other people have made up a 3rd and refuse to tell me what it is.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm still 100% lost as to "identity" in context being used here even means.

Much like the sex/gender thing there are things you are, objective factors/qualities you have whether you like it or not, it's just up for debate and things you want to have, strive to have and everything, everything about you falls into one of those two categories and this entire discussions sounds like other people have made up a 3rd and refuse to tell me what it is.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm still 100% lost as to "identity" in context being used here even means.

In practice it's the answer to "How do you identify yourself" but in theory it's something fairly ineffable.

Online terven often joke about the status of one's "gender soul"
https://twitter.com/preta_6/status/1674286144262111233

I find this funny because all my progressive friends believe in something like a gender soul, and almost all my non-progressive friends still believe in literal spiritual souls. It seems the gods are only issuing people the one or the other.

 

[Ziggurat]

How many of them are there, and how do I decide which one I have?

You don't decide, that's the point. And how many there are depends on the group you're in, because the group decides, not you.

 

[Cain]

The entire concept of self-determined identity is a farce. Nobody gets to determine their own identity, whether you're talking about sex, gender, or anything else. Identity is always socially negotiated.

The valorization of one's inner life over the social world finds its most consequential expression in the views of Martin Luther. Trans politics tends to be hyper-individualistic and hand-in-glove American.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This is kind of like the old argument that said traditional marriage did not discriminate against gay people because gay people have always had the right to marry -- they just have to marry someone of the opposite sex. The most compelling argument for female-only restrooms is that they empowered women to be public citizens by allowing them to safely venture out. The same would go for disabled people, who understandably feared having to use a restroom. The costs for ADA were not insignificant, as you well know. A lot of ink was spilled in National Review and Reason about just paying six-figure sums to the disabled rather than expensive retrofits to accommodate a minority.

If the arguments being made were to completely eliminate sex-specific services and spaces, there'd at least be some sense to it. I would disagree, with reasons along the lines of those you presented.

But the majority of the arguments are not being made to turn everything unisex... the arguments being made are to make them be separated on the basis of gender identity instead of sex. And that makes no sense.

 

[Matthew Best]

Taking that approach even further, I don't even identify as a human being.

You might be the mythical cat we’ve been reading about.

 

[Emily's Cat]

But the sexes aren't equal. There are fundamental differences between them. Men can't get pregnant, women can. Men are stronger than women. Etc. You seem to have this idea that if you do away with all segregation, that will create equality, but it won't. Rather, it will exacerbate the inequalities. In the case of sex, which is fundamentally different than race, limited segregation can help level the playing field which is otherwise intrinsically unequal.

For sex-specific case, it was never "separate but equal". It's always been separate because unequal.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I get your point and broadly agree, but this claim as written is wrong. The statistic you cite is specific to homicides. But homicides are a small minority of domestic violence. Low level domestic violence is actually much more equal between the sexes, and male victims of domestic violence don't get nearly as much recognition as they deserve.

But that's somewhat irrelevant. Segregating sexes in pubic facilities won't protect someone from a domestic abuser, who has access to them in non-segregated private spaces. Stranger violence is much more relevant to sex segregation, and even at lower levels (not just homicides), stranger violence is overwhelmingly dominated by males.

Except for domestic violence shelters, of course.

 

[d4m10n]

For sex-specific case, it was never "separate but equal". It's always been separate because unequal.

Who was it that said “equals should be treated equally and unequals unequally” it sounded pretty good at the time.

Sent from my Aristotlator using Tapatalk

 

[Emily's Cat]

I took a look at these 3rd, 4th, 5th, gender older cultures, like fa'afaine you refer to in Samoa. I have not yet found where women become men in such cultures. It seems to be accepted as a male centric role..ie males moving between genders and having a special job in the community, like a shaman.... but not females.

Do you know of any that do it in the reverse? or allow heterosexual "female identified" males as most are here in the US?

Many of them, while respected in their limited roles, are effectively being evicted from the ranks of males - they aren't RealMen^TM, and thus they need to be placed in a separate category. But they're also not as low on the totem pole as females, so they merit a level of respect to their othering.

The only case I know of are Sworn Virgins in... somewhere in eastern europe. And that was a case of females being required to forego marriage and children so that they can take ownership of their father's farms if there were no male children to inherit it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Gender segregated bathroom/shower facilities are common, and I don't necessarily see how they are inherently bad assuming trans people aren't discriminated against. I've also said quite clearly that sex segregation in sports in one example where there is a compelling fairness concern, though I don't think it's the only concern and it does not necessarily means that trans people must always be excluded.

Don't conflate sex and gender. Gender segregated bathroom/shower facilities are not common, and are an incredibly new thing that has been forced on the female population against our will. Prior to very recently, those spaces have been overwhelmingly SEX segregated.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The presumption of these segregated spaces is that both men and women have very similar modesty concerns and these rules bind women as much as they bind men, which at least to my perspective is true.

Your perspective as a male? Particularly as a white male, you lack any perspective at all about the modesty concerns of Korean females who would like to continue using their spas as they've done for ages.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Agreed, but it leads to a lot of difficulties if you've got friends with idiosyncratic linguistic needs. Gotta remember who identifies as "cis" and who emphatically doesn't (So sorry, JBP please don't throw hands!) which birthing persons are okay with being called a "woman" and which ones would rather be addressed without any reference to sex and gender binaries, which birthing persons are absolutely not okay with being called "birthing persons" or by gender neutral pronouns, which neopronouns to use for the adorable theybies in saffron yellow at the polyamorous coven across the street, etc.

One of the weird things about this discourse is that each side demands that they be addressed using the language they prefer, but rarely make that concession to the other side. No progressives are going to say that it's alright to avoid "cis" if someone doesn't happen to identify with it, unless that someone happens to be transgender.

Ah, well.

Disagree. There was an ad shown on Twitter last week, I think it was from the UK. It was encouraging "women and people with a cervix" to get a cervical screening.

There were a few females who objected... but the ad was overwhelmingly approved of by gender critical females as being respectful of females as well as being inclusive of people with alternate gender identities.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I am surprised, because I'm sure I was told that cis men would never do this kind of thing.

Add it to the list of things that would never ever happen.