Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[Ziggurat]

Separate but equal was never actually the case in practice, but even if it were, the discrimination itself is also a harm on its own.

But the sexes aren't equal. There are fundamental differences between them. Men can't get pregnant, women can. Men are stronger than women. Etc. You seem to have this idea that if you do away with all segregation, that will create equality, but it won't. Rather, it will exacerbate the inequalities. In the case of sex, which is fundamentally different than race, limited segregation can help level the playing field which is otherwise intrinsically unequal.

 

[d4m10n]

Indeed, that's a very bold stance, because limited sex segregation has already worked very well prior to the last few years. And it's not being attacked now on the basis that it doesn't work.

Precisely. Progressive reformers are arguing that we need to change our toilets / changing rooms / locker rooms / sports leagues etc. from "females over here, males over there" to "women over here and men over there, bearing in mind that trans women are women and trans men are men" which is to say they want to maintain the existing system of sex segregation but move a small percentage of people from category M to F or vice-versa, based on the sex which people know themselves to be rather than their body habitus and physical characteristics.

To sum up, here are the three possibilities:

1. Segregation by sex in spaces traditionally segregated by sex
2. Segregation by gender in spaces traditionally segregated by sex
3. Integration of all sexes and genders in spaces traditionally segregated by sex

When it comes to the second and third possibilities, I refer everyone back to the example from the OP: Laurel Hubbard was hoping to set weightlifting records in the set of books previously reserved to females. As you said, such an approach will only exacerbate actual inequalities by bumping females out of competition.

ETA: Is anyone really arguing for the third possibility, across the board?

 

[Ziggurat]

There is a reason why 96% of all domestic violence is committed by males.

I get your point and broadly agree, but this claim as written is wrong. The statistic you cite is specific to homicides. But homicides are a small minority of domestic violence. Low level domestic violence is actually much more equal between the sexes, and male victims of domestic violence don't get nearly as much recognition as they deserve.

But that's somewhat irrelevant. Segregating sexes in pubic facilities won't protect someone from a domestic abuser, who has access to them in non-segregated private spaces. Stranger violence is much more relevant to sex segregation, and even at lower levels (not just homicides), stranger violence is overwhelmingly dominated by males.

 

[smartcooky]

Why ever would you think that? Sex segregation in many sports (such as running) has nothing to do with safety, and nobody claims it does. Sex segregation in changing rooms isn't just about safety, it's also about dignity, which is why women aren't allowed in the men's changing room even though they don't pose a safety risk.

And sex segregation in sports such as rugby, football, hockey, basketball etc, where physical size and strength are key, is about the protection of the females, as well as the legal liability of the sporting organizations in charge. Female adult rugby players, even at the elite level, are physically smaller and lighter than their male counterparts. Playing against males, there are almost certainly going to be serious injuries to them, probably career-ending, and even life-threatening. If the sporting bodies concerned allow males and females to compete in the same teams, they are going to be held liable for those.

 

[Ziggurat]

And sex segregation in sports such as rugby, football, hockey, basketball etc, where physical size and strength are key, is about the protection of the females

Sure. My point, though, was that safety wasn't the only reason to segregate sexes as Joe claimed.

And in terms of sports safety, it's not a stopgap measure as Joe suggested. You can never make a sport like rugby safe for adult females to play against adult males.

 

[theprestige]

"I assumed nobody thought sex segregation was a legit, inherent "good" thing, just a necessary one.

It is inherently a good thing to do what is necessary.

 

[d4m10n]

It is inherently a good thing to do what is necessary.

The 1896 Summer Olympics^WP had no female competitors whatsoever, but it strikes me as both good and morally necessary that the modern competition was gradually reformed to allow for participation of women in the Olympics^WP in their own category. These reforms are not a stopgap measure, but rather a means to allow half of the human race a chance to get in on the competition and l'esprit des jeux.

 

[lionking]

I do not think "women" (as being discussed in this context at this point in the discussion and Jesus ******* tap dancing Christ the fact that I have to clarify that just makes me want to give up) are the victims of crimes or the victims of crimes in some unique way TO THE POINT that this level of, for lack of a better term, quarantine is warranted.

Also this is a self defeating argument because the trans side argument is that they are even more of a potential victim then you mass produced women, so that puts us right back where we started, staring the "Victim Ranking Chart" while people fight for who's on top of it, again.

Yes, keep your head in the sand. There have been many cases of women being assaulted by transwomen in this thread.

 

[Hercules56]

He can't answer, because he doesn't actually know. It's just an assumed truth, and to even question it makes you a bad person.

I'd have a problem with sex segregation if it was shown to be done so as to persecute women and give them poorer services, as compared to men.

So far, I see no evidence of that. Except maybe in Afghanistan.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

But the sexes aren't equal. There are fundamental differences between them. Men can't get pregnant, women can. Men are stronger than women. Etc. You seem to have this idea that if you do away with all segregation, that will create equality, but it won't. Rather, it will exacerbate the inequalities. In the case of sex, which is fundamentally different than race, limited segregation can help level the playing field which is otherwise intrinsically unequal.

Is the physical difference in average strength at play when deciding whether or not men and women can share a public swimming pool?

 

[d4m10n]

Is the physical difference in average strength at play when deciding whether or not men and women can share a public swimming pool?

To be totally clear, what is your stance on municipal pools?

1) Sexes must be separated
2) Sexes may be separated some of the time (e.g. selected hours, changing rooms, etc.)
3) Sexes must not be separated

I'm guessing #3 based on the (manifestly false) idea that all sex segregation is analogous to Jim Crow, but it would be worth spelling out here.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[Roboramma]

The point of the hypothetical was to demonstrate that even types of sex segregation that are introduced for the best of reasons can have unwanted consequences when moved into the real world. Folk in this thread have said that trans women should not be allowed - even if they are victims of domestic violence - into a women's refuge because they are not females. That approach then means a refuge would be turning away females with male children. Which means in the UK thousands of women with a male child would be turned away or told they can be helped but not their child, they would have to find other services to care for the male child.

Your hypothetical does seem like a real issue to me. In the case you bring up, it does seem like a problem to turn away either the woman herself, or just her 16 year old son. I don't know if such shelters tend to have exceptions for dependents such that a 16 year old boy would be allowed in if her mother was admitted, but I do think such decisions are probably best left in the hands of those who run the shelters as they best understand what the women who go there need.

However, that situation doesn't have much bearing on this thread as its an issue with segregation, whether it's done by gender or sex. Are you arguing against segregated women's shelters? If not, this hypothetical has nothing to say about whether trans women should be admitted to women's shelters (if they were admitted, that 16 year old boy would still be kept out).

 

[d4m10n]

Meanwhile in the upside-down, "cis" has become a literal fighting word for JBP:

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1673907401005715456

Jesus ******* Christ we need better self-help gurus here N. America.

 

[Sherkeu]

Is the physical difference in average strength at play when deciding whether or not men and women can share a public swimming pool?

Better question: does the community have Muslims? What if it is majority Muslim? What if it is 10%? Do you decide differently for access to the community pool? Should the Muslims make their own schools and swimming pools at their own expense?

Democrats have been all about protecting Muslim rights. 2/3 are Democrats, which seemed reasonable at the time. All reps in Congress that are Muslim are Democrats. They now vote for party-led trans-inclusive policies- I bet they do so a bit reluctantly, but they do support them. It seems like a bit of a dilemma: party vs culture. Will they survive much longer promoting 'new rules' that fly in the face of preferred modesty?
Muslim females are SOL in a public pool, swim team, locker room etc... if you made the rules.

If you have seen the news you'll see some conflicting sides to the issue. This week, Obama was saying that Modi in India should protect Muslim minority rights because he feels that not doing it will pull India "apart" focusing on what Hindus want, yet Democrat communities and school boards with Muslim majorities here in the US are telling Muslims to pound sand about their concerns. ...and no surprise, they are rebelling and protesting.

Pick one: Trans Women (treated as fully female) or Muslim females get their rights acknowledged in pool policy.

You cannot have both in this case.

 

[Lplus]

Is the physical difference in average strength at play when deciding whether or not men and women can share a public swimming pool?

Only if they're involved in a contact sport...

 

[The Atheist]

[*]Segregation by gender in spaces traditionally segregated by sex

It astonishes me why that isn't the prime goal, and I do have to admit that trans women are the problem. They - or at least the vocal ones - are demanding that they're women, when they aren't and never can be.

The more sensible ones, which I'm sure are a majority, would vote for separate facilities. I think fa'afafine, where their tradition holds them as a "third gender" would be almost 100% supportive.

Ho hum.

Meanwhile in the upside-down, "cis" has become a literal fighting word for JBP:

If Jordan Petersen doesn't like it, I think it's probably something I should embrace - he's a bigoted piece of puke.

 

[Samson]

It astonishes me why that isn't the prime goal, and I do have to admit that trans women are the problem. They - or at least the vocal ones - are demanding that they're women, when they aren't and never can be.

The more sensible ones, which I'm sure are a majority, would vote for separate facilities. I think fa'afafine, where their tradition holds them as a "third gender" would be almost 100% supportive.

Ho hum.



If Jordan Petersen doesn't like it, I think it's probably something I should embrace - he's a bigoted piece of puke.

Fafafina are gay men.
This is where statistics are always in play.
It is the epic tragedy that conversion therapy and culture have failed these fine and normal men.

 

[lionking]

It astonishes me why that isn't the prime goal, and I do have to admit that trans women are the problem. They - or at least the vocal ones - are demanding that they're women, when they aren't and never can be.

The more sensible ones, which I'm sure are a majority, would vote for separate facilities. I think fa'afafine, where their tradition holds them as a "third gender" would be almost 100% supportive.

The problem is with the banner wavers like Mermaids and their compatriots in other countries. They think having seperate facilities for transwomen is a concession that they are not women (they aren’t of course) which is not a concession TRAs are not prepared to make. And politicians have been falling over backwards to cave in to TRAs. But there are signs that the tide is turning, with at least Spain, Sweden and England winding back on unquestioning support for TRA. Restricting blockers and genital surgery for minors is just the start. I sincerely hope.

 

[Sherkeu]

Fafafina are gay men.
This is where statistics are always in play.
It is the epic tragedy that conversion therapy and culture have failed these fine and normal men.

I took a look at these 3rd, 4th, 5th, gender older cultures, like fa'afaine you refer to in Samoa. I have not yet found where women become men in such cultures. It seems to be accepted as a male centric role..ie males moving between genders and having a special job in the community, like a shaman.... but not females.

Do you know of any that do it in the reverse? or allow heterosexual "female identified" males as most are here in the US?

 

[Samson]

The problem is with the banner wavers like Mermaids and their compatriots in other countries. They think having seperate facilities for transwomen is a concession that they are not women (they aren’t of course) which is not a concession TRAs are not prepared to make. And politicians have been falling over backwards to cave in to TRAs. But there are signs that the tide is turning, with at least Spain, Sweden and England winding back on unquestioning support for TRA. Restricting blockers and genital surgery for minors is just the start. I sincerely hope.

I took a look at these 3rd, 4th, 5th, gender older cultures, like fa'afaine you refer to in Samoa. I have not yet found where women become men in such cultures. It seems to be accepted as a male centric role..ie males moving between genders and having a special job in the community, like a shaman.... but not females.

Do you know of any that do it in the reverse? or allow heterosexual "female identified" males as most are here in the US?

Atheist is far better informed and I hope he will expand.
I am simply reflecting on a statistical model that is quite clear.
Homosexuality is common.
True "born in the wrong body" is extremely rare.