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Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

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Sherkeu said:
I took a look at these 3rd, 4th, 5th, gender older cultures, like fa'afaine you refer to in Samoa. I have not yet found where women become men in such cultures. It seems to be accepted as a male centric role..ie males moving between genders and having a special job in the community, like a shaman.... but not females.

Do you know of any that do it in the reverse? or allow heterosexual "female identified" males as most are here in the US?
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TurkeysGhost said:
This isn't what self ID means where it is in practice. It involves making official declarations to the state and having documents updated, and it's perfectly possible to gatekeep based on gender.

I'm not aware of any locality where the scheme you describe is in practice. Perhaps I'm just ignorant, care to provide an example?
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New Zealand has self ID sex.
 
In the eyes of most people, the key element of discrimination that makes it bad, is that it is unjust and based on a system of intentional unfairness due to perceived inferiority or services provided to a certain class of people is of less value to society.

From that perspective, which I feel is very correct, sex segregation for pools, bathrooms and sports is NOT discrimination.

Afghanistan not allowing girls to go to school, IS discrimination.
 
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Ziggurat said:
Self ID is what it says on the tin: you are the gender you say you are. Your self identification is the only thing that matters, no form of gatekeeping is permitted. For example, if bathroom access is granted on the basis of self ID gender, anyone can say they are a woman and enter the women's bathroom. Under this standard, segregation isn't workable because you cannot maintain segregation at all.

Self ID is what the trans rights activists want as the standard.
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Where has self ID been implemented like that? As far as I was aware all "self-ID" legislation that has passed in countries requires you to do some paperwork to make your official change. I don't know any that don't require actual documentation to be changed to change your M or F on official documents.

Self-ID doesn't mean that when you can see there's a long queue outside the ladies' loo you can say "I'm now a man" and walk in and use the men's loo, go in, spend a penny and then come out and say "I'm now a woman".
 
Samson said:
New Zealand has self ID sex.
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TurkeysGhost said:
not in the way as described by Ziggurat, no they don't.
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https://www.govt.nz/browse/passport...the-registered-sex-on-your-birth-certificate/
.....How to apply
You must:

complete an application form
make a statutory declaration – a written statement signed in front of an authorised person and declared to be true
provide a certified copy of an acceptable photo identification (ID).
If you do not have an acceptable photo ID, you must complete an identity referee declaration form.

You must show your photo ID or completed identity referee declaration to the same person who is authorising your statutory declaration. Sign the identity referee declaration in front of them. They can certify this document at the same time.....
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Slightly off topic I know, so if someone wants to report me, go ahead, but this is kind of amusing:

The number of Victoria Police employees self-identifying as “gender neutral” has more than quadrupled since last year, new figures show, as the force confirms it is investigating reports some of its officers are gaming the HR system in order to gain an extra $1300 a year, which they receive as "clothing allowance".

https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...e/news-story/ab85868602ca99251b4aff14ae55d5ff
 
TurkeysGhost said:
This isn't what self ID means where it is in practice. It involves making official declarations to the state and having documents updated, and it's perfectly possible to gatekeep based on gender.
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If there's no gatekeeping on the official declarations to the state, and you're only relying on official declarations to the state, then there's no actual gatekeeping. There's just self ID as I described with extra steps, but it's still self ID.

And in many places, there's no gatekeeping on official declarations to the state.
 
Darat said:
Where has self ID been implemented like that? As far as I was aware all "self-ID" legislation that has passed in countries requires you to do some paperwork to make your official change. I don't know any that don't require actual documentation to be changed to change your M or F on official documents.
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That doesn't mean anything if official documents aren't required. And for Target restrooms, I don't think they are.

Self-ID doesn't mean that when you can see there's a long queue outside the ladies' loo you can say "I'm now a man" and walk in and use the men's loo, go in, spend a penny and then come out and say "I'm now a woman".
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In California it does. Just mark yourself nonbinary, and you can flip between the two at your convenience.
 
d4m10n said:
Meanwhile in the upside-down, "cis" has become a literal fighting word for JBP:

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1673907401005715456

Jesus ******* Christ we need better self-help gurus here N. America.
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I have heard expressions like "revenge of the cis." In a video essay, Natalie Wynn/ContraPoints quoted the following "A-plus" Twitter comment: "'Passing' is transphobic. Don't lock yourself into the lies of the cis."

As a general matter of political correctness/manners, one should refer to people by what they generally prefer to be called, at least in polite society (one of the main problems with social media is that it collapses the public sphere with friends venting). "Negroes" is a rather obviously antiquated term. Rowling famously pushed back against the description "people who menstruate." On "Mother's Day" one or two years ago, much hay was made out of the term "birthing parent." I wonder what percentage of women find it disrespectful.

So what happens with cisgender people who do not like being labeled "cis"? Do you respect their preferred descriptors? Norm Macdonald had a bit where he'd ask a guest if they know they're a "cis male" (or "cis female"). Not familiar with the phrase, the guest would gobble the bait, asking, "Is this a new phrase?" "Yes, it's a way of marginalizing a normal person."

Terminology like "cisgender" is useful precisely because it sounds alien and robotically neutral. Speaking of "upside-down," Richard Dawkins has talked about how a South-side-up map of the earth helps "raise consciousness." It compels one to look at the world in a different way (literally). From the perspective of the universe, there's no reason why North should be up (Importantly, it's a South-side-up, not an upside-down map). David Foster Wallace more or less talked about this in his famous commencement speech where some young fish were asked, "How's the water?"
 
Cain said:
As a general matter of political correctness/manners, one should refer to people by what they generally prefer to be called, at least in polite society...
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Agreed, but it leads to a lot of difficulties if you've got friends with idiosyncratic linguistic needs. Gotta remember who identifies as "cis" and who emphatically doesn't (So sorry, JBP please don't throw hands!) which birthing persons are okay with being called a "woman" and which ones would rather be addressed without any reference to sex and gender binaries, which birthing persons are absolutely not okay with being called "birthing persons" or by gender neutral pronouns, which neopronouns to use for the adorable theybies in saffron yellow at the polyamorous coven across the street, etc.

One of the weird things about this discourse is that each side demands that they be addressed using the language they prefer, but rarely make that concession to the other side. No progressives are going to say that it's alright to avoid "cis" if someone doesn't happen to identify with it, unless that someone happens to be transgender.

Ah, well.
 
d4m10n said:
Agreed, but it leads to a lot of difficulties if you've got friends with idiosyncratic linguistic needs. Gotta remember who identifies as "cis" and who emphatically doesn't (So sorry, JBP please don't throw hands!) which birthing persons are okay with being called a "woman" and which ones would rather be addressed without any reference to sex and gender binaries, which birthing persons are absolutely not okay with being called "birthing persons" or by gender neutral pronouns, which neopronouns to use for the adorable theybies in saffron yellow at the polyamorous coven across the street, etc.

One of the weird things about this discourse is that each side demands that they be addressed using the language they prefer, but rarely make that concession to the other side. No progressives are going to say that it's alright to avoid "cis" if someone doesn't happen to identify with it, unless that someone happens to be transgender.

Ah, well.
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Insanity is the word for this nonsense.
It means victims who are being forgotten in the rush and are being trampled under foot.
Children
Women mcwomenfacewomen
Lesbians
People who fought for Plain English.
Sane people.

Everyone can make their own list. It is infinitely depressing.
 
Matthew Best said:
Slightly off topic I know, so if someone wants to report me, go ahead, but this is kind of amusing:

The number of Victoria Police employees self-identifying as “gender neutral” has more than quadrupled since last year, new figures show, as the force confirms it is investigating reports some of its officers are gaming the HR system in order to gain an extra $1300 a year, which they receive as "clothing allowance".

https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...e/news-story/ab85868602ca99251b4aff14ae55d5ff
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As a former Victoria Police employee I’m both saddened and not surprised. Coppers are always quick to grab extra cash
 
Samson said:
People who fought for Plain English.


Everyone can make their own list. It is infinitely depressing.
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Who are these “people who fought for Plain English”?

Do they have a cenotaph at which we can lay a wreath with the words “lest we forget this wreath is so that we remember them”
 
angrysoba said:
Who are these “people who fought for Plain English”?

Do they have a cenotaph at which we can lay a wreath with the words “lest we forget this wreath is so that we remember them”
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Is plain English a virtue or a vice?
Women or people who menstruate?
Do you have a preference?
 
angrysoba said:
Who are these “people who fought for Plain English”?
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Ask and ye shall receive!!

https://www.plainenglish.co.uk/

"Since 1979, we have been campaigning against gobbledygook, jargon and misleading public information. We have helped many government departments and other official organisations with their documents, reports and publications. We believe that everyone should have access to clear and concise information.

The campaign officially began after founder, Chrissie Maher OBE, publicly shredded hundreds of official documents in Parliament Square, London. Entirely independent, we fund our work through our commercial services, which include editing and training. We have worked with thousands of organisations including many UK government departments, public authorities and international banks, helping them make sure their public information is as clear as possible.

Our Crystal Mark now appears on more than 23,000 documents worldwide.

Launched in 1990, and the first mark of its kind, the Crystal Mark is used by over 1600 organisations who want to provide the clearest possible information."​
 
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smartcooky said:
Ask and ye shall receive!!

https://www.plainenglish.co.uk/

"Since 1979, we have been campaigning against gobbledygook, jargon and misleading public information. We have helped many government departments and other official organisations with their documents, reports and publications. We believe that everyone should have access to clear and concise information.

The campaign officially began after founder, Chrissie Maher OBE, publicly shredded hundreds of official documents in Parliament Square, London. Entirely independent, we fund our work through our commercial services, which include editing and training. We have worked with thousands of organisations including many UK government departments, public authorities and international banks, helping them make sure their public information is as clear as possible.

Our Crystal Mark now appears on more than 23,000 documents worldwide.

Launched in 1990, and the first mark of its kind, the Crystal Mark is used by over 1600 organisations who want to provide the clearest possible information."​
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Thank you.
 
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