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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

The mere fact that Thomas was even competing in the 50 meter AND the 1650 meter events is in itself remarkable.
Indeed it is.

It is almost unheard of for any competitive swimmer to compete in the short distance as well as the middle distance events. The vast majority of swimmers specialize in either the sprints (50m, 100m, 200m and 400m), the middle distances (800m, 1500m) or the long distance (5,000m and 10,000m). This is due to the different types of fitness required for the different distances ie. speed v endurance. A sprint swimmer has to train to generate maximum speed off the blocks, and maintain full effort for the whole of the race. A middle distance swimmer needs even and consistent stroke rates for much longer period of time..... anaerobic fitness v aerobic fitness.

A good example of when you DO see a swimmer competing across a whole range of distances is when you have one swimmer in school or club whois very, very good, and a much better swimmer that anyone else at the school or club. This would be a swimmer who is bigger and faster than his peers by a long shot. Gee, I wonder what that sounds like? :whistling

One mile in swimming is long distance. The fact that Usain Bolt might run a slower marathon than the women marathon runners is not evidence that men don’t have an unfair advantage, or that Bolt should be allowed to compete against women. Plus, you got the comparison wrong. Ledecky’s record is for the 1500 meter event. 1500 meters is noticeably less than a mile. You cannot compare 1500 meters event times to 1 mile events. The fact that Ledecke swam 1500 meters in 15:25.48 while Thomas swam 1650 in 15:59.41 isn’t proof that Ledecke is faster, because that’s a SLOWER rate given the 10% longer distance they swim. If Ledecke kept her same pace, she would have swam 1650 in about 16:58, almost a minute slower. And assuming the same pace for a longer race is generous to Ledecke.
:big: Yup. Anyone who doesn't know that the mile and the 1500 metres are not the same has much burned any credibility they might have had in any discussion of swimming or athletics. Also, it should also be kept in mind that a lot of domestic swimming competitions in the US are still run over distances in yards, not metres. 1,500 yards is appreciably shorter than 1,500 metres.
 
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It was and still is.

Apparently he meant it was a metric mile and unaccountably didn't mention the 1,500 metres part. Nevermind.

Since we all seem to agree that Thomas shouldn't have been swimming in the women's events, even though he would be beaten by Olympic medallists even if he was trying his best, could we move on?

To brighten your Bank Holiday weekend, here is Katie Ledecky swimming a length of the pool with a glass of chocolate milk balanced on her head.

 
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Indeed it is.
Or it would be if true. And it isn't. Thomas does NOT race in the 50 metres.


It is almost unheard of for any competitive swimmer to compete in the short distance as well as the middle distance events. The vast majority of swimmers specialize in either the sprints (50m, 100m, 200m and 400m), the middle distances (800m, 1500m) or the long distance (5,000m and 10,000m). This is due to the different types of fitness required for the different distances ie. speed v endurance. A sprint swimmer has to train to generate maximum speed off the blocks, and maintain full effort for the whole of the race. A middle distance swimmer needs even and consistent stroke rates for much longer period of time..... anaerobic fitness v aerobic fitness.

A good example of when you DO see a swimmer competing across a whole range of distances is when you have one swimmer in school or club whois very, very good, and a much better swimmer that anyone else at the school or club. This would be a swimmer who is bigger and faster than his peers by a long shot. Gee, I wonder what that sounds like?
:whistling
Pretentious blather deleted.
:big: Yup. Anyone who doesn't know that the mile and the 1500 metres are not the same has much burned any credibility they might have had in any discussion of swimming or athletics.
It's actually YOU and Ziggurat who has burnt all credibility.

The 1650 is in YARDS, not METRES. It is often referred to as the ONE MILE in swimming. How much is 1650 yards in metres? 1509 metres.

Anyone who claims to be an avid follower of Olympic swimming should know this.

Also, it should also be kept in mind that a lot of domestic swimming competitions in the US are still run over distances in yards, not metres. 1,500 yards is appreciably shorter than 1,500 metres.
Which is why it is 1650 yards, NOT 1500 metres.

Jeeeeez Louise!
 
Who has said that in this forum? I don’t think I’ve seen that.

I was half hoping that Thomas was selected for the US Olympic team so I could see the Australian women destroy him.

As others have pointed out, it is at the lower levels of swimming (and there are many important college events at this level) where the unfair advantages of transwomen are clear.
That is the narrative here....

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that after the event in which he thrashed those girls (the Zippy Invitational in Ohio) where he recorded 1:41.93 for the 200 yards freestyle, finishing almost 3/4 length ahead of the first biological (i.e. real) woman to finish, he must have realised the jig would be up if he continued to win by such big margins, so he started sandbagging... only doing what he needed to in order to win, as well as throwing some unimportant races. In his next favoured event, the 500 yard freestyle, he won with a time of 4:37.32... winning only by about a body-length. That time was a seven seconds slower than his qualifying time (which he set before his 200 yard win) and even more short of his PB.
Ask any top level swimmer and they will tell that is a suspiciously large drop in performance that would be very difficult to explain unless he was sandbagging. I watched that 500 yard swim... he was not trying very hard, hardly kicking at all.

.
It was surely obvious even before he started this grift that the women's times were so much poorer than the men's, than what he was capable of, that he would have to take it easy. But he really went for it in that race. Three-quarters of a length!

To set a record that would never be broken?
smartcooky set the ball rolling by saying that Thomas's time in the Zippy Invitational was somehow freakishly fast. It was actually not, as many, many women have shown. But it was the margin of victory which raised eyebrows, not the times, which maybe few people would know.

So smartcooky says that Thomas must have started deliberately swimming slowly.

Rolfe says "It was surely obvious even before he started this grift that the women's times were so much poorer than the men's,
than what he was capable of".

Yet this is not true, is it? Women were perfectly capable of beating Thomas without "sandbagging". The records and results speak for themselves.

And what can Aber mean by "to set a record that would never be broken" when plenty of women swimmers were already much faster.

Since then we have seen Ziggurat and smartcooky try to convince us that actually Thomas was better than all the women and they have been congratulating themselves on their expertise even though they are both completely and demonstrably wrong.
 
It is almost unheard of for any competitive swimmer to compete in the short distance as well as the middle distance events. The vast majority of swimmers specialize in either the sprints (50m, 100m, 200m and 400m), the middle distances (800m, 1500m) or the long distance (5,000m and 10,000m). This is due to the different types of fitness required for the different distances ie. speed v endurance. A sprint swimmer has to train to generate maximum speed off the blocks, and maintain full effort for the whole of the race. A middle distance swimmer needs even and consistent stroke rates for much longer period of time..... anaerobic fitness v aerobic fitness.

A good example of when you DO see a swimmer competing across a whole range of distances is when you have one swimmer in school or club whois very, very good, and a much better swimmer that anyone else at the school or club. This would be a swimmer who is bigger and faster than his peers by a long shot. Gee, I wonder what that sounds like? :whistling
Duuhhh, yeah I wonder....

 
I was thinking about the "genuine trans" trope, and how so many people are convinced this represents the archetypical trans-identifying man. I personally have not come across such a person.

The person who pushed for the changes in UK law that led to the Gender Recognition Act was one Anthony Allington (who became Christine Goodwin). If you merely read the accounts of the court cases you'd be forgiven for imagining that Goodwin was a feminine-looking man, someone who would routinely be read as a woman. He was complaining that he couldn't draw his pension at sixty, as a woman would, but had to wait till the male age of sixty-five. Because he was a man, of course. (This discrepancy has now been abolished, but it was the case at the time.)

Other complaints were that he couldn't marry a man, because same-sex marriage was illegal (that was changed in 2013), and that he was disadvantaged because he couldn't carry out any transaction that involved producing his birth certificate, because that would "out" him as trans and he was so embarrassed that he wouldn't do it. So he couldn't rent a flat. He took the case to the ECHR, who sided with him and forced the UK government to give him what he wanted, and this led eventually to the GRC being passed. It's all in his Wikipedia page. Which has a picture of the ECHR, but not of Goodwin himself.


Reading all that tale of secrecy, of sentitive files and changed NI number and elaborate precautions to prevent an employer discovering that he was really a man, and anyone would think this was a poor, nervous, retiring soul who really looked like a woman. Well, the prolonged legal challenges and the designation "activist" on the Wikipedia page puts a rather different perspective on that aspect. But was he really in danger of being "outed" by his birth certificate?


Just a short film clip makes it obvious how preposterous this suggestion is. Indeed, the litany of harassment suffered by Goodwin would scarcely have happened if he had read as female to the people he encountered in his daily life. He was harassed for being "trans", it says, but it would be more accurate to say that he was harassed because he was quite obviously a man wearing womanface. (Protection against such harassment is provided by the Equality Act now.) To go to such extreme lengths to conceal what was written all over his face and audible in his voice speaks of a real disconnect from reality.

Reading about Goodwin, especially if he is referred to as "she" throughout (these compelled pronouns are insisted on for a reason) gives one impression, but the minute you actually see Goodwin, you have to revise that.

I don't think Goodwin was much on TV at the time of the court cases he instigated. What was on TV was Coronation Street and the character of Hayley Cropper. She (and I mean she, this time) was the public face of the "transwoman" in society. Hers was the face being seen at the time the Goodwin legal actions were being pursued. What did she look like?

1746274650322.png

Well, like a woman, of course. Because she was a woman. Julie Hesmondhalgh was only 5 feet 3 in tall, and obviously with a woman's body shape and a woman's voice. The storyline was sentimental in the extreme, with Hayley getting married to another regular character, white dress and all I think. Viewers were encouraged to believe this was just the same as if the character had married a woman, and no icky details about wounds lined with inverted penile skin were allowed to cloud the romance. (Subconsciously, if anyone thought about it at all, Julie's obviously female appearance would lead one to assume normal female genitalia.)

According to Wikipedia, "Hayley would go on to spend 16 years on Coronation Street, always seeing the good in people and nurturing Fiz Brown (Jennie McAlpine) and Becky McDonald (Katherine Kelly) from troubled young women to kind, caring, individuals. In her later years, Hayley formed an unlikely, yet notably close, friendship with Carla Connor (Alison King) and although it was obvious the pair were from completely different walks of life, they came to respect and care for each other."

It was pure propaganda. This seems still to be the face and the character associated with the "genuine trans" person in many people's minds. The face of a woman and the character of a particularly kind woman who has close women friends. It was brilliant. If you're hearing about a court case where a "transwoman" is trying to keep his trans status secret from everyone he meets, you imagine Hayley, not "Christine".

The way the trans lobby want the law to be, nobody is even allowed to comment on what is plainly obvious to everyone with eyes and/or ears. Elaborate secrecy rituals and criminal penalties for revealing someone's trans status, an autistic teenager punished for asking "are you a man?" and it's all pretty Orwellian. And still, everything is supposed to be arranged to cater for the semi-mythical Hayley, while what is in front of our faces is "Christine".

This article goes into the paradox of the requirement for secrecy rather well.


The whole thing does raise the question of "what's the point?" We see the trans activists prancing around with flags and slogans about "Trans Pride". If you really can't hack the achievement of looking like a woman in the flesh (an achievement Julie Hesmondhalgh had no problem with of course), isn't it better just to be relaxed about it and try for that pride?

But my main point here is about the imagined trans versus the real trans. People imagine Julie, but the reality is Anthony.
 
Mocking neurodivergent people is generally considered pretty scummy, yes.
"Your mental disorder isn't your fault, but it is your responsibility."

Neurodivergence doesn't mean immunity to consequences for the choices you make. It doesn't indemnify you from ridicule, if you choose to do ridiculous things.

I don't make fun of paranoid schizophrenics because of their absurd paranoia. From what I understand, they don't have much of a choice. I have sympathy for people who struggle to stay on their mental health meds, when it means a significant downgrade in their life experience.

I even have a lot of compassion for pedophiles, and I really wish our society was more tolerant and supportive of people who suffer from the condition. But what I have zero tolerance for is pedophiles who choose to indulge their perversion, rather practice abstinence and seek treatment. And if they choose to beclown themselves in their advocacy for normalizing their perversion, then I will certainly point at them and laugh. Likewise those who choose to beclown themselves in their advocacy of fiat self-ID.

Gender dysphoria is a mental health issue. Immodesty is a choice. Womanface is a choice. Maybe mocking people for their bad choices is unkind. "Slut shaming", and all that. But you can't hide behind your neurodivergence, to avoid criticism of your choices. Unless they aren't choices. Unless you're so deranged that - like the paranoid schizophrenic - you have no real control over how you're thinking and what you're doing.
Neurodivergence can mean you don't have a choice in how you behave. Autism meltdowns and stimming, tourette's, etc. as examples.

How did you decide that gender dysphoria always means the person understands they have a choice?
 
Neurodivergence can mean you don't have a choice in how you behave. Autism meltdowns and stimming, tourette's, etc. as examples.

How did you decide that gender dysphoria always means the person understands they have a choice?

Do you think all public behaviour, no matter how gross and offensive, should be tolerated without question, just on the vague off-chance that the person doing it might be "neurodivergent"?
 
Neurodivergence can mean you don't have a choice in how you behave. Autism meltdowns and stimming, tourette's, etc. as examples.
What you wear is a choice. Even for autistic people. Moreover, taking pictures of yourself and putting them online is also a choice, not a compulsion. Stop making excuses.
 
"Your mental disorder isn't your fault, but it is your responsibility."
Their responsibility for what? To present in a way that you feel comfortable with? Do you have the same obligation to them?
Neurodivergence doesn't mean immunity to consequences for the choices you make.
No, it doesn't. Neorotypical people have choices too, like being tolerant or hateful.
It doesn't indemnify you from ridicule, if you choose to do ridiculous things.
Maybe not branding someone who marches to the beat of a different drummer as 'ridiculous' might be a start?
I don't make fun of paranoid schizophrenics because of their absurd paranoia. From what I understand, they don't have much of a choice. I have sympathy for people who struggle to stay on their mental health meds, when it means a significant downgrade in their life experience.
I would certainly hope and expect that you wouldn't ridicule someone tormented by schizophrenia. I would also not expect you to compare it to something as inconsequential as dressing in women's clothes.
I even have a lot of compassion for pedophiles, and I really wish our society was more tolerant and supportive of people who suffer from the condition. But what I have zero tolerance for is pedophiles who choose to indulge their perversion, rather practice abstinence and seek treatment.
Agreed, and i also wish others would see severe disorders that way, even when they have over the top ick factors.
And if they choose to beclown themselves in their advocacy for normalizing their perversion, then I will certainly point at them and laugh.
I wouldnt. I'd say they had lost their grip on harming others, and moved into psychopathic indulgence. Not a laughing matter, and not comparable to an autistic transgender who wants to wear a frilly dress without victimizing or raping a child. I mean, come on man.
Likewise those who choose to beclown themselves in their advocacy of fiat self-ID.
If that self ID goes not much further than using a bathroom and dressing as they please, 'beclowning' is needlessly judgemental. Live and let live.
Gender dysphoria is a mental health issue.
Agreed, but that suffering/distress is not really the topic here.
Immodesty is a choice.
Do you loudly call young girls in bikini tops at the grocery store 'whores'?
Womanface is a choice.
Womanface isn't a thing beyond some frat boys in wigs acting like sluts for the other guy's amusement.
Maybe mocking people for their bad choices is unkind. "Slut shaming", and all that.
Not unkind: sociopathically cruel.
But you can't hide behind your neurodivergence, to avoid criticism of your choices. Unless they aren't choices. Unless you're so deranged that - like the paranoid schizophrenic - you have no real control over how you're thinking and what you're doing.
Ok. Is there any distinction in your view between choosing to dress as you feel comfortable (many of us think of that as a kind of basic human right) and the suffering of a schizophrenic? Cuz I don't see them in the same universe.
 
Another compilation montage. Not a shy, shrinking violet among them.

1746374767203.jpeg

Whether any are "neurodivergent", I really couldn't possibly say.
 
What you wear is a choice. Even for autistic people. Moreover, taking pictures of yourself and putting them online is also a choice, not a compulsion. Stop making excuses.
Wait, aren’t you going to acknowledge that Katie Ledecky is way better than Lia Thomas and that it was YOU who got the comparison wrong, not realizing that the one mile was 1650 yards, which was essentially 1500 metres?

I would appreciate it if people would just own up to their mistakes.
 
Neurodivergence can mean you don't have a choice in how you behave. Autism meltdowns and stimming, tourette's, etc. as examples.
Sure, and I gave some examples as well.
How did you decide that gender dysphoria always means the person understands they have a choice?
Any sane person has a choice between seeking treatment and seeking enablement for the condition from which they suffer.

Even pedophiles can choose celibacy and therapy, instead of the other thing.

Paranoid schizophrenia, on the other hand, doesn't leave its victims much of a choice.

Nothing I've seen or heard about gender dysphoria or autogynaephilia suggests to me that those neurodivergencies leave their victims without rational agency in the choices they make.

And even when an individual may not have agency, society still has agency. If an autistic individual believes they have no choice but to adopt a transgender identity and seek transgender entitlements, shouldn't we seek to help them manage their autism, rather than enabling its symptoms?
 
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To seek healthful treatment for their condition, not anti-social enablement. To take responsibility for the choices they make, and not excuse the harm they choose to cause as "neurodivergence"
We were talking about the autistic transwoman everyone felt free to 'point and laugh at'. Near as I can tell from her feed, she doesn't lobby for female restroom access. She just wants to be accepted as a person as-is. So... what 'harm' is she causing again? What does she do that's anti-social? And she needs treatment for wanting to dress the way she wants?
Absolutely not.
You do not expect her to conform to your expectations, but you want to be able to mock and ridicule her if she doesn't meet them?
 
Are we going to come full circle where not only will the trans people have to accept their biological sex but they had better start adopting the gender roles that correspond to that sex, which ten minutes ago were being described here as “regressive stereotypes”?

“You’re a bloke! Not get out of that frilly girly dress and put on a bloody suit and cut your hair!”
 
Their responsibility for what? To present in a way that you feel comfortable with? Do you have the same obligation to them?
If a person's chosen way to present them selves is naked, in public, covered in pig's blood, is that acceptable to you?

No, it doesn't. Neorotypical people have choices too, like being tolerant or hateful.
Which of these do you think the transgender protester in UK chose? Do you think they chose wisely?

Maybe not branding someone who marches to the beat of a different drummer as 'ridiculous' might be a start?
That might depend on what the marching results in. What if the person is a serial killer, and that drum tells him to kill people. This is OK with you?

I would certainly hope and expect that you wouldn't ridicule someone tormented by schizophrenia. I would also not expect you to compare it to something as inconsequential as dressing in women's clothes.
When those dressing in women's clothes are using their appearance to invade women's safe spaces, its far from inconsequential.

Do you loudly call young girls in bikini tops at the grocery store 'whores'?
This is a non-sequitur... why would he?

Womanface isn't a thing beyond some frat boys in wigs acting like sluts for the other guy's amusement.
Womanface is ANY time a man wears specifically women's clothing. I find your attitude on this surprising, given your willingness to use racial segregation as a comparison. But maybe you think blackface isn't a thing "beyond some frat boys" and face paint?

Ok. Is there any distinction in your view between choosing to dress as you feel comfortable (many of us think of that as a kind of basic human right) and the suffering of a schizophrenic? Cuz I don't see them in the same universe.
Schizophrenic people have detectable chemical imbalances in the brain, that can be treated medically with drugs to correct the imbalance. Same goes for those with bipolar disorder. This is not the case with gender dyphoria... there is NO detectable change in brain chemistry... gender dysphoria is purely a figment of the mind - it can be treated and reversed without drugs, using talk therapy. Many young sufferers revert on their own... a phase they grow out of. The last thing we should be doing is affirming that young person's fantasies by irreversibly blocking the natural course of puberty, and carrying out devastating irreversible surgery.

In years to come, our descendents are going to look back at this time, and wonder what the ◊◊◊◊ we were thinking. They will compare this debacle with the scandals over the use of thalidomide and epilim, and will be very harsh in their judgement of us..
 
Do you think all public behaviour, no matter how gross and offensive, should be tolerated without question, just on the vague off-chance that the person doing it might be "neurodivergent"?

No. Stop making things up.

What you wear is a choice. Even for autistic people. Moreover, taking pictures of yourself and putting them online is also a choice, not a compulsion. Stop making excuses.

I was asking theprestige. His post at least had some vague understanding of psychology.
 
Sure, and I gave some examples as well.

Any sane person has a choice between seeking treatment and seeking enablement for the condition from which they suffer.

Even pedophiles can choose celibacy and therapy, instead of the other thing.

Paranoid schizophrenia, on the other hand, doesn't leave its victims much of a choice.

Nothing I've seen or heard about gender dysphoria or autogynaephilia suggests to me that those neurodivergencies leave their victims without rational agency in the choices they make.

And even when an individual may not have agency, society still has agency. If an autistic individual believes they have no choice but to adopt a transgender identity and seek transgender entitlements, shouldn't we seek to help them manage their autism, rather than enabling its symptoms?
First you say gender dysphoria is neurodivergence then you say it's not, contrasting it with schizophrenia.

Yet transwomen very often say they were 'born this way'.

Note, I do think there is concurrently also a trans fad happening from the likes of the misinformation vortex tiktok where people have social contagion.

I don't think this has been studied in enough detail, so don't be too sure that all transwomen are not compelled to act the way they do.
 
First you say gender dysphoria is neurodivergence then you say it's not, contrasting it with schizophrenia.
That is not what he said.

Yet transwomen very often say they were 'born this way'.
"Born in the wrong body" is a medical, biological and scientific fiction. People may say that, or claim they feel that, but facts don't care about feelings.

Note, I do think there is concurrently also a trans fad happening from the likes of the misinformation vortex tiktok where people have social contagion.
Yup, there sure is. Its turning into a cult, and the far left is buying in.

I don't think this has been studied in enough detail, so don't be too sure that all transwomen are not compelled to act the way they do.
And it probably never will be, because transgender people don't want any such studies done (presumably because they believe such studies might yield results they don't like). They would rather everyone just take them at their word and not challenge their beliefs. Ask people like Dr. Katherine Stock, Maya Forstater, Colin Wright, Prof. Selina Todd, Prof. Kathleen Lowery, Prof. Nathaniel Hiers, Laura Tanner, Dr. Stephen Gliske, Dr. Linda Gottfredson, Prof. Jerry Coyne and Dr. Lisa Littman - they can tell you what happens to you when you dare question the transgender narrative.
 

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