Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ziggurat]

Mastectomy is not a purely elective surgery for cosmetic purposes.

"Mastectomy" just means removal of the breast tissue, that applies both for breast cancer treatment and "top surgery". So sometimes mastectomies are elective cosmetic surgeries, sometimes they are not.

 

[d4m10n]

But these aren't clearly lifesaving circumstances.

There isn't any definition of "mutilation" which hinges on whether the operation itself is for the sake of physical health, mental health, or mere aesthetic preference.

Mastectomy is not a purely elective surgery for cosmetic purposes.

See above.

 

[d4m10n]

Don't forget that lobotomies used to be thought of as compassionate care.

Lobotomists could at least claim to be targeting the organ that was causing the problem.

(Top surgeons, not so much.)

 

[Brainster]

Sure. But it still showed the ridiculousness of the policy of accommodating anything and everything trans.

Definitely a reductio ad absurdum moment if ever there was one. But I don't buy that he was trans, so we can't really determine anything about the mental health of trans people from him. Now, the mental health of some trans allies was certainly revealed to be lacking.

 

[Rolfe]

Technically, even a piercing is a mutilation.

 

[theprestige]

Definitely a reductio ad absurdum moment if ever there was one. But I don't buy that he was trans, so we can't really determine anything about the mental health of trans people from him. Now, the mental health of some trans allies was certainly revealed to be lacking.

Reminds me of the kids these days that make a huge performance of having a severe mental disorder. Dissociative Identity Disorder is popular, as are Tourette's and Autism. Needless to say, these are self-diagnosed, and the symptoms they display are nothing like the actual symptoms of the disorder. That being said, I think that a lot of them really do have some sort of psychological or emotional cross-wiring. Just... not the disorder they pretend to have. Factitious Disorder by Social Media, maybe.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The other is the worshipper at the shrine of the "transkid", the 21st century version of the indigo child. These children, who might not even have learned to count yet, know their ineffable gender essence so completely and so reliably that the only thing to do is to agree with them and set them on a pathway that leads inexorably to drugs that stunt growth, dissolve bone strength and drop IQ by several points, and then mutilating surgery that will leave them sterile and anorgasmic. Because if that isn't done, they will kill themselves. Therefore this Mengelian régime is described as "life-saving treatment". Any exploratory counselling to try to discover why the child feels like that is "conversion therapy" and must be prohibited by law, along with ECT to "cure" homosexuality. Women seem to predominate in this group, though not absolutely overwhelmingly, and of course some examples espouse both narratives

Modern day munchausen by proxy

 

[Emily's Cat]

I am not saying that Thomas should be swimmin with the women. I have explicitly argued otherwise.

I am saying there are women who would blow Thomas out of the water.

Let's level set by recognizing that Thomas set record times in a couple of events, and was a top competitor among female athletes... but was an incredibly mediocre low-scoring competitor among males.

That's where the problem lies. It's not that some top-of-their-game females can beat Thomas - it's that Thomas is a male who is uncompetitive against males but dominated females.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Neurodivergence can mean you don't have a choice in how you behave. Autism meltdowns and stimming, tourette's, etc. as examples.

How did you decide that gender dysphoria always means the person understands they have a choice?

As a general commentary, I have heartburn with neurodevelopmental conditions being lumped in with behavioral and personality disorders.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Nothing I've seen or heard about gender dysphoria or autogynaephilia suggests to me that those neurodivergencies leave their victims without rational agency in the choices they make.

Paraphilias are not neurodivergence. Neurodivergence refers to neurodevelopmental disorders - disorders in which the function of a brain area doesn't develop within the normal range for humans. This doesn't imply cognitive disorders - those in which the ability to think and apply logic is impaired.

Paraphilias are behavioral disorders.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Are we going to come full circle where not only will the trans people have to accept their biological sex but they had better start adopting the gender roles that correspond to that sex, which ten minutes ago were being described here as “regressive stereotypes”?

“You’re a bloke! Not get out of that frilly girly dress and put on a bloody suit and cut your hair!”

Generally speaking, most people don't give a crap about what people wear. It's only when they insist that what they're wearing (or how they feel inside their heads) entitles them to ignore sex-based separations of spaces and services and to violate other people's intimate boundaries that we care.

If you're a male, please feel free to wear as many frills and sparkles as you like, but please also use the male restrooms, changing rooms, and showers.

If you're a female, wear as many plaid shirts and steel-toed boots as you wish, but please also use the female restrooms, changing rooms, and showers.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Schizophrenic people have detectable chemical imbalances in the brain, that can be treated medically with drugs to correct the imbalance. Same goes for those with bipolar disorder.

Not quite. Actual schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder; bipolar disorder is a behavioral disorder.

Some drugs can mitigate some of the psychotic effects, but psychotic disorders are extremely difficult to manage, and they can't genuinely be treated - only controlled. Behavioral disorders can be mitigated through drugs in some cases, but they can also be treated with cognitive behavioral therapy, which is not at all useful for psychotic disorders.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I object to "mutilation" of course, since it's emotionally loaded language you most likely wouldn't use to describe, say, mastectomy or orchiectomy in other (more clearly lifesaving) circumstances.

Removing healthy body tissue in a way that interferes with the body's ability to function qualifies as mutilation in my mind.

Removing unhealthy body tissue in order to save a life or to maintain as much function as possible is an entirely different issue. Removing or altering body tissue in a way that does NOT interfere with function isn't mutilation... although it can certainly be a bad idea.

 

[theprestige]

Paraphilias are not neurodivergence. Neurodivergence refers to neurodevelopmental disorders - disorders in which the function of a brain area doesn't develop within the normal range for humans. This doesn't imply cognitive disorders - those in which the ability to think and apply logic is impaired.

Paraphilias are behavioral disorders.

I'm using the colloquial term, not the technical one. I'm pretty sure Orphia is doing the same.

 

[angrysoba]

Let's level set by recognizing that Thomas set record times in a couple of events, and was a top competitor among female athletes... but was an incredibly mediocre low-scoring competitor among males.

That's where the problem lies. It's not that some top-of-their-game females can beat Thomas - it's that Thomas is a male who is uncompetitive against males but dominated females.

Yes, I agree that Thomas has benefitted from an advantage of male anthropometry and puberty, and for this reason should not be allowed to enter comptetitive (other than, presumably, exhibition) events.

Generally speaking, most people don't give a crap about what people wear. It's only when they insist that what they're wearing (or how they feel inside their heads) entitles them to ignore sex-based separations of spaces and services and to violate other people's intimate boundaries that we care.

If you're a male, please feel free to wear as many frills and sparkles as you like, but please also use the male restrooms, changing rooms, and showers.

If you're a female, wear as many plaid shirts and steel-toed boots as you wish, but please also use the female restrooms, changing rooms, and showers.

I agree with the first. Males should not enter the female toilets etc... I think the transmen in the male toilets etc... is less of an issue. I would expect that women are likely to be more uncomfortable with bearded male-presenting transmen in the women's toilets and showers than men will be in male toilets and showers.

 

[d4m10n]

Again, the term "mutilation" as typically understood doesn't have anything built into its denotative meaning about whether it's aesthetic or therapeutic in nature. One could as easily argue that the key difference between decorative and mutilative body modification is to be found in the degree of moral approbation which attaches.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Paraphilias are not neurodivergence. Neurodivergence refers to neurodevelopmental disorders - disorders in which the function of a brain area doesn't develop within the normal range for humans. This doesn't imply cognitive disorders - those in which the ability to think and apply logic is impaired.

Paraphilias are behavioral disorders.

Just as an aside, would you call schizophrenia "neurodivergence"?

I'm using the colloquial term, not the technical one. I'm pretty sure Orphia is doing the same.

I think we're all a bit mixed up on who's doing what when.

And, like I said, and people agree, there haven't been enough psychological studies (for whatever reason).

 

[smartcooky]

Not quite. Actual schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder

I'll take the word of Johns Hopkins Medicine on this one...

Schizophrenia

Schizophrenia is a complex brain disorder. It is caused by a chemical imbalance and often runs in families. This illness can't be cured but can be managed with medicine and therapy.

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

bipolar disorder is a behavioral disorder.

... and this one

Bipolar Disorder

Bipolar disorder is a mood disorder. People with bipolar disorder switch between periods of mania and periods of depression. There is no cure, but medicine and therapy can help manage symptoms.

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

NOTE: I did not intend to imply that bipolar is caused by chemical imbalances, only that both are treatable with medicine. However, on reading back, I can see how someone could interpret what I said in that way.

The point I was making (and as @d4m10n correctly pointed out) was that these mental illnesses are treated by addressing the issues with the organ in question. Gender dysphoria seems to be the only mental illness that some in the medical profession prescibe treatment by lopping off healthy parts. We don't encourage sufferers from Body Integrity Identity Disorder to amputate limbs and other body parts in order to affirm their fantasies, why on Earth is it OK to encourage sufferers from Gender Identity Disorder to do the same?

 

[Rolfe]

Some people seemed to be having difficulty understanding the concept of self-exclusion. They should read this whole thread.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1919316901362127271

Woman tend not to complain. They just stop using the service that has now become mixed sex. There's also the issue that if they do complain their complaints are often brushed aside while the demands of the men are given top priority. So eventually, they stop complaining and take themselves elsewhere. "We haven't had any complaints. There is a low demand for this service," kind of sums it up.

 

[Darat]

Thread out of moderated status.

Posted By: Darat