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Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

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Nessie said:
Which suggests Americans shoot each other because of easy access to guns, and take those guns away, they would just use something else to kill each other. That would reduce the murder rate, since guns are more effective killers than knives or clubs, but it may increase the attempt murder rate, as more attempts to kill fail due to the weapon used.

A good rate to examine is A&E admissions for injuries caused by violence. That is a strong indocator of how overall violent a society is.
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BBbbut... isn't an armed society a polite society?:duck:
 
Blue Mountain said:
While the raw numbers are accurate, you're forgetting the USA is the third most populous country on Earth, after China and India. The proper way to do this is to look at the murder rate, which is usually per 100,000 population. 662 murders in a country with 330 million people translates to a rate of 0.20 per 100,000. Aside from some small countries with no murders at all, only Singapore at 0.16 has a murder rate below 0.2. Japan is 0.26.
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Indeed. I was going to make that point. A murder rate of less than two per day in a country of 330 million is **** all!
 
crescent said:
Since Columbine nearly all schools have doors that can lock from inside the classroom. The limitation is that many of them require a key to do so. Some have electronic locks that can be triggered from the central office or even remotely by police dispatch in the event of a lockdown.

Sandy Hook had them. The schools principle slowed down the shooter enough for all teachers to lock the doors - all but a substitute teacher who had not been issued the key. That was where nearly all the Sandy Hook fatalities were.

Stoneman Douglas had locked schoolroom doors. The shooter there pulled the fire alarm before he started shooting, drawing some kids into the hall where he killed them. He shot others by firing through the doors, they had little windows that he could see through to target them. Some of the classrooms had designated areas not visible from the door windows and had plans to shelter there in case of an active shooter, but then put furniture there, making that plan unfollowable once something actually happened.

But yes - locking doors from inside the classroom is standard. In my kid's schooling in three towns over two states from kindergarten to high school, all classrooms in all schools lock from the inside.
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Not aiming at you directly but don’t most Americans realise how insane it is that you have to be even thinking about these types of issues - in a school?
 
arayder said:
The NRA poo-poos this idea saying that it won't be effective since all the mass shooter would need to do is practice his mag changes. But I say that's their usual "It won't work" spiel. Mag changes under pressure are hard to do and the average mass shooter is, IMHO, a dip **** loser who has never practiced anything in his sad life. When the NRA makes its "It won't work" argument they show film of some competitive shooter who's been practicing mag changes for the last decade.
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smartcooky said:
I do not believe limiting mag sizes will have much effect. When I was in the military, one of the things we were taught to do to help maintain a high rate of fire was to ducktape two full mags back to back. Each mag of the L1A1 held 20 rounds of 7.62, so you could rattle off 40 rounds in about 30 seconds with reasonable accuracy, including the mag change.

Now you can buy mag couplers that do a similar job. . .
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Oh, yeah I know about the technique.

My hypothesis is that is that practicing mag changes or doing the duck tape job or getting the mag couplers (which could be outlawed along with high cap mags) and training to use them too much for some I'm-gonna'-get-a-gun-and-kill-somebody dip shirts.

But your point is well taken. Some highly functional criminals could make the modifications work. So like most of the solutions proposed here they are not singularly going to be 100% effective.

Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove disguised swear word. In the public sections (of which SI&CE is one) do not disguise swear words by altering the spelling or adding, replacing or removing characters. Type all swear words out in full and allow the autocensor to work if they are on the list.


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Dope Clock II: It's been 349 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
 
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Lurch said:
Many people applauded Beto"s confronting Abbott the other day. That's just one lonely voice who can be shut down, as we saw from that podium of shrill, cowardly bullies.

Why doesn't the majority who support gun reforms rise up in one almighty voice, metaphorical pitchforks at the ready, and read the GOP the riot act but good.

You have the impending loss of bodily autonomy for women as dictated by a small minority. You have your children being slaughtered because of a small minority's catering to a mony-supplying lobby. Your next election or the one after that could be the last.

What in hell are you waiting for? Instead of griping into the void, get up off your couches and make your voice really heard. Don't wait for politicians to ride in and save the day. Don't be like the cowed herd before the bully, waiting for someone else to step up. YOU make the first move, and soon the ball will get rolling.

Fight for your rights, and show the world you're not a nation of meek cucks who will just roll over as their rights are stripped by away by a rising tide of Christo-Fascist corporatists emboldened by the weakness of the masses they so contemptuously dismiss.
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.... because those are the minority view on Texas. It doesn't get the votes to change the state government.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Do you think most of these irrational impulsive kids know this?
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smartcooky said:
I think if I can find these things in a Google search, so can they?
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The thing is mastering any of mag changes methods and using the couplers takes time and training.

Yeah, some school shooters do research equipment. I am reminded of a couple of them who used body armor neck guards in addition body armor, apparently upon realizing the cops had it together enough to shoot them in the neck.

But one doesn't have to train to use the neck armor.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 349 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
 
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Darat said:
Not aiming at you directly but don’t most Americans realise how insane it is that you have to be even thinking about these types of issues - in a school?
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I thought it insane when I found out many (most?) schools have "Active Shooter Drills", although they may be called something else. I remember doing the old "Duck & Cover" routine for protection against those nuclear warheads.
 
Venom said:
That sounds like a skirmish between gangs or something.
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Out of curiosity, what makes you say that? It was at a pizza parlor. Turf war for pepperoni maybe? Bloods and Crips vying for free toppings? MS13 expanding to anchovy dealing?

What it sounds like to me is a bunch of people who are armed and ready to shoot as an argument resolution technique, then someone started an argument that needed resolving.
 
alfaniner said:
The last few times I have speculated if someone would eventually go the Emmett Till route. (using that as a comparison, not a criticism). I thought things were never going to change until we started seeing pictures of dead kids. Perhaps the extensive coverage of Ukraine contributed to that? I haven't seen any yet, and neither need nor want to. But I can totally predict that the Republicans will complain that the parents are exploiting their children's death to make a political statement . Here's a pre-emptive "**** you!"

Even David Hogg posts that he thinks it feels different this time, and now that even Jon Voight posted something logical in relation to background checks, the tide is moving.
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I am seeing some discussion from different sources along this line. I have not heard that before. I think it's only a matter of a short time now.
 
arayder said:
Too heavy a hand on gun control will bring consequences that will make Sandy Hook, the Buffalo grocery store and Uvaldea look like a day at the beach.

I am telling you don't send any troopers up the holler to get Cletus's guns.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 346 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
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Not troopers, just send in some artillery.
 
alfaniner said:
I am seeing some discussion from different sources along this line. I have not heard that before. I think it's only a matter of a short time now.
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The Gundamentalist propaganda will ensure that many of the people who see such imagery will react to them by buying guns to protect their families.

The cultural divide is very wide.

Many of us see guns as dangerous, the proliferation of guns as a dangerous thing.

Many others see guns as a necessary safety device for the home. Fire extinguisher for the risk of fires, guns on hand to deal with dangerous people.

When I say that dead children sell guns - that's not hyperbole. In a week or two we'll start seeing the articles about the spike in gun sales caused by this shooting.
 
Darat said:
Not aiming at you directly but don’t most Americans realise how insane it is that you have to be even thinking about these types of issues - in a school?
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At the local school the doors in the 'new' (twenty years ago) wing and any that have had to be replaced, turning the key from the outside unlocks the door only while the key is turned. That is to say, you can't keep the door unlocked from the outside. Once the key is out, or even not turned because it is under spring tension to unturn, the handle can't be used to open it from the outside. These doors are steel and steel framed, but that's just good sense from a cost over time standpoint anyway. I'm not sure if there is a way to lock the newer doors from the inside. That is, I think these doors might always open from the inside but only with a key turned from the outside.

EDIT: We keep the doors open with a door stop or a magnet block to keep the door from closing all the way, as the doors close automatically too. In drills kicking the block or grabbing the magnet is very, very fast.

alfaniner said:
I thought it insane when I found out many (most?) schools have "Active Shooter Drills", although they may be called something else. I remember doing the old "Duck & Cover" routine for protection against those nuclear warheads.
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Again at the local school, there is still 'duck and cover' but it's done for severe weather events like tornadoes. There are not just Active Shooter drills, there are different ones for 'Exterior Threat' and 'Interior Threat'. That changes where you hide (from the interior windows or exterior ones) and where you put up the sign with a number showing how many people are in the room. You want rescuers to know the room has people in it and how many but the attackers to not. Schools here use a slightly modified version of the Federal active shooter guidance of 'Run, Hide, Fight' in that it applies still if you're not in a classroom but the assumption is that rescue will be coming to a school quickly, knowing that you're supposed to engage as soon as you have a stack (three people, used to be five decades ago), and the benefit of running from the school itself is countered by the confusion, and thus time delays, it causes for rescuers. Plus school shooters have used evacuation routes as killing zone funnels before. Thus for a classroom the order usually becomes 'Hide, Run, Fight'.
 
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crescent said:
The Gundamentalist propaganda will ensure that many of the people who see such imagery will react to them by buying guns to protect their families.

The cultural divide is very wide.

Many of us see guns as dangerous, the proliferation of guns as a dangerous thing.

Many others see guns as a necessary safety device for the home. Fire extinguisher for the risk of fires, guns on hand to deal with dangerous people.

When I say that dead children sell guns - that's not hyperbole. In a week or two we'll start seeing the articles about the spike in gun sales caused by this shooting.
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Don't have to wait. Stocks in gun manufacturers rose the day after the shooting. Dead kids are good for business.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Do you think most of these irrational impulsive kids know this?
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Most kids do not, but some of these mass shooters obviously plot their attacks, which was true for the guy in Buffalo, who drove to gun shops out of state, left behind a sprawling manifesto, and wanted to livestream the atrocities. The Buffalo shooter talked about circumventing NY's "cucked" magazine capacity. (He also talked about spending an afternoon at a gunshop "finger-[effing]" -- a deranged subculture's highly amusing patois). Oddly, the public wants gun regulations to stop these mass shootings, but that's where they're least likely to have an effect (some of the most prominent recent shootings involve 18 year-old men, so maybe raising the age to buy any type of weapon to 21 could have an impact).

Never mind that the vast majority of gun homicide victims are not part of a mass shooting. Gun suicide is even more common than all types of firearm homicide, but I don't think we need to worry about high-capacity magazines in cases of self-harm. Handguns, as opposed to "assault rifles," are still the biggest problem in terms of public health. The regulations that poll well (universal background checks) are unlikely to make much of a difference. If I could, I'd ban all pistols and semi-automatics, but that's politically impossible given the culture.
 
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