Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

[JoeMorgue]

The problem is we've let the Nutcases on the Right define "Day gunna take our guns" as step 1 in the "Evil Liberal Takeover" narrative for so long that literally any gun law, no matter how rational or well supported by the 60% of the population who isn't intentionally stupid because it tweaks the libs, is going to come across as "Act 1 in our paranoid Red Dawn Prepper Fantasy"

 

[arayder]

I'd suggest setting up the mag buy back for a limited amount of time and or money. That means you got a year or until the funds dry up to get a voucher or money for an old high cap mag.

After the time is up folks are just gonna' have to destroy their mags.

If they don't like it or if they think it's the first step towards confiscation that's tough.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 348 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

 

[Bob001]

....
Sandy Hook had them. The schools principle slowed down the shooter enough for all teachers to lock the doors - all but a substitute teacher who had not been issued the key. That was where nearly all the Sandy Hook fatalities were.
....

I didn't know that. So 26 people were killed because nobody thought to hang a key on a string? Christ.

 

[crescent]

I didn't know that. So 26 people were killed because nobody thought to hang a key on a string? Christ.

No.

26 people died at Sandy Hook because the shooter's idiot mother thought that the best treatment for his obvious mental illness was to buy guns for him and teach him to shoot.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Here's one of the things we DO have to account for.

America does have a massive murder rate even if you take guns away.

If we get some kind of sane gun laws based someone is sooner or later going to go on a stabbing spree or drive a car into a crowd or something and you know, you just know the gun nuts are going to use that as "proof" that gun control doesn't do anything even if overall rates go down. You know they'll do it. You can probably already imagine the... well not arguments but the "LOL good thing he didn't have a gun hardy hardy har" trolling they will do.

This is America. You take away handguns (8029 murders), Firearms, Unspecified (4863 murders), Knives (1739 murders), Other weapons (983), Rifles (455), Clubs/Hammers (393), Shotguns (223), Narcotics (113), Fire (106), Asphyxiation (71), Strangulation (58), Poison (16), Drowning (5), and Explosives (4) we would still have 662 murders a year in America, which is still more murders than Japan, Spain, Italy, Australia, Sweden, Israel, the Netherlands, Finland, Greece, Scotland, Norway or many, many, many, many other countries have.

Americans beat each other to death with their bare hands at a murder rate greater than most countries.

We have both a gun problem AND a murder problem and the gun people WILL dishonestly try and argue that not solving the murder problem means we shouldn't try and solve the gun problem.

We need to go ahead and figure out how we are going to address that fallacious counter-argument now.


*2020 stats, last year I can find them broken down by weapon used

Seems you are ignoring the role played by easy access to a mass killing device with the bonus you don't have to get close to the victims and it's optional if you want to look them in the eye.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have tried to make the case several times for simply limiting the size of magazines used in semi-auto rifles and pistols. While this restriction would not effect the ease of operating the weapon (i.e. no pump, lever or bolt to operate) it makes the weapon less deadly.

The NRA poo-poos this idea saying that it won't be effective ....

Claiming without evidence and often in the face of contradictory evidence that anything related to gun control won't work is a common right-wing talking point.

And that shouldn't be a surprise given their typical claims are baseless lies.

 

[Meadmaker]

No.

26 people died at Sandy Hook because the shooter's idiot mother thought that the best treatment for his obvious mental illness was to buy guns for him and teach him to shoot.

There can be more than one "because".


I also had never heard the key story.

 

[arayder]

The NRA poo-poos this idea [limiting the size of magazines] saying that it won't be effective since all the mass shooter would need to do is practice his mag changes. . . . Mag changes under pressure are hard to do and the average mass shooter is, IMHO, a dip **** loser who has never practiced anything in his sad life. When the NRA makes its "It won't work" argument they show film of some competitive shooter who's been practicing mag changes for the last decade

Claiming without evidence and often in the face of contradictory evidence that anything related to gun control won't work is a common right-wing talking point.

And that shouldn't be a surprise given their typical claims are baseless lies.

This claim is a particularly revealing lie.

The NRA knows very well that when the **** hits the fan fine motor skills go out the door. That's why people who carry guns and know what they are doing practice their gun handling skills a lot knowing that in a pinch all they'll have is their training.

The NRA knows it too and regularly urges its members to train.

But the NRA knows there are millions of people out there who don't know beans about armed defense and might well buy the idea that mag changes are easy as pie.

I consider the lie to be an insult to my intelligence.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove disguised swear words. In the public sections (of which SI&CE is one) do not disguise swear words by altering the spelling or adding, replacing or removing characters. Type all swear words out in full and allow the autocensor to work if they are on the list.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 348 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Which is an outrage, though I might argue that the CDC is not the proper agecny to do this.

Within the CDC is an organization called the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

So while this might upset one's sense of proper flowcharts, they are the most qualified body to study the issue of firearms injuries and how to prevent them.

 

[smartcooky]

I have tried to make the case several times for simply limiting the size of magazines used in semi-auto rifles and pistols. While this restriction would not effect the ease of operating the weapon (i.e. no pump, lever or bolt to operate) it makes the weapon less deadly.

The NRA poo-poos this idea saying that it won't be effective since all the mass shooter would need to do is practice his mag changes. But I say that's their usual "It won't work" spiel. Mag changes under pressure are hard to do and the average mass shooter is, IMHO, a dip **** loser who has never practiced anything in his sad life. When the NRA makes its "It won't work" argument they show film of some competitive shooter who's been practicing mag changes for the last decade.

I do not believe limiting mag sizes will have much effect. When I was in the military, one of the things we were taught to do to help maintain a high rate of fire was to ducktape two full mags back to back. Each mag of the L1A1 held 20 rounds of 7.62, so you could rattle off 40 rounds in about 30 seconds with reasonable accuracy, including the mag change.

Now you can buy mag couplers that do a similar job

They are even available to couple five magazines

 

[Lurch]

Many people applauded Beto"s confronting Abbott the other day. That's just one lonely voice who can be shut down, as we saw from that podium of shrill, cowardly bullies.

Why doesn't the majority who support gun reforms rise up in one almighty voice, metaphorical pitchforks at the ready, and read the GOP the riot act but good.

You have the impending loss of bodily autonomy for women as dictated by a small minority. You have your children being slaughtered because of a small minority's catering to a mony-supplying lobby. Your next election or the one after that could be the last.

What in hell are you waiting for? Instead of griping into the void, get up off your couches and make your voice really heard. Don't wait for politicians to ride in and save the day. Don't be like the cowed herd before the bully, waiting for someone else to step up. YOU make the first move, and soon the ball will get rolling.

Fight for your rights, and show the world you're not a nation of meek cucks who will just roll over as their rights are stripped by away by a rising tide of Christo-Fascist corporatists emboldened by the weakness of the masses they so contemptuously dismiss.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... I consider the lie to be an insult to my intelligence. ...

You are not the target market. Neither am I.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I do not believe limiting mag sizes will have much effect. When I was in the military, one of the things we were taught to do to help maintain a high rate of fire was to ducktape two full mags back to back. Each mag of the L1A1 held 20 rounds of 7.62, so you could rattle off 40 rounds in about 30 seconds with reasonable accuracy, including the mag change.

Now you can buy mag couplers that do a similar job

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/3wccp7uk05c8s8a/magcoupler2.jpg?raw=1[/qimg]

They are even available to couple five magazines

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/8yugtmirw6bjbdw/magcoupler5.jpg?raw=1[/qimg]

Do you think most of these irrational impulsive kids know this?

 

[Meadmaker]

Many people applauded Beto"s confronting Abbott the other day. That's just one lonely voice who can be shut down, as we saw from that podium of shrill, cowardly bullies.

Why doesn't the majority who support gun reforms rise up in one almighty voice, metaphorical pitchforks at the ready, and read the GOP the riot act but good.

You have the impending loss of bodily autonomy for women as dictated by a small minority. You have your children being slaughtered because of a small minority's catering to a mony-supplying lobby. Your next election or the one after that could be the last.

What in hell are you waiting for? Instead of griping into the void, get up off your couches and make your voice really heard. Don't wait for politicians to ride in and save the day. Don't be like the cowed herd before the bully, waiting for someone else to step up. YOU make the first move, and soon the ball will get rolling.

Fight for your rights, and show the world you're not a nation of meek cucks who will just roll over as their rights are stripped by away by a rising tide of Christo-Fascist corporatists emboldened by the weakness of the masses they so contemptuously dismiss.

Well it surely wouldn't interest anybody outside of a small circle of friends.


But I do sometimes still wear my "March for Our Lives" t-shirt.

 

[smartcooky]

Do you think most of these irrational impulsive kids know this?

I think if I can find these things in a Google search, so can they?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think if I can find these things in a Google search, so can they?

Perhaps you misunderstood the question.

 

[Nessie]

Not all shootings are the same just because the happen around a school. Many of the incidents on your list are what we regrettably would characterize as ordinary crimes: one or two victims, some kind of problem between criminal and victim, etc. Columbine, Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, Uvalde etc., like Buffalo, Aurora, etc., are pre-meditated murders with high-capacity weapons of as many strangers as the killer can find.

This might be a more relevant list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

Which proves my point about normalisation.

I have Northern Irish relatives who lived through the Troubles. They normalised it. It is amazing what people will get used to.

 

[Blue Mountain]

Here's one of the things we DO have to account for.

America does have a massive murder rate even if you take guns away.

If we get some kind of sane gun laws based someone is sooner or later going to go on a stabbing spree or drive a car into a crowd or something and you know, you just know the gun nuts are going to use that as "proof" that gun control doesn't do anything even if overall rates go down. You know they'll do it. You can probably already imagine the... well not arguments but the "LOL good thing he didn't have a gun hardy hardy har" trolling they will do.

This is America. You take away handguns (8029 murders), Firearms, Unspecified (4863 murders), Knives (1739 murders), Other weapons (983), Rifles (455), Clubs/Hammers (393), Shotguns (223), Narcotics (113), Fire (106), Asphyxiation (71), Strangulation (58), Poison (16), Drowning (5), and Explosives (4) we would still have 662 murders a year in America, which is still more murders than Japan, Spain, Italy, Australia, Sweden, Israel, the Netherlands, Finland, Greece, Scotland, Norway or many, many, many, many other countries have.

Americans beat each other to death with their bare hands at a murder rate greater than most countries.

We have both a gun problem AND a murder problem and the gun people WILL dishonestly try and argue that not solving the murder problem means we shouldn't try and solve the gun problem.

We need to go ahead and figure out how we are going to address that fallacious counter-argument now.


*2020 stats, last year I can find them broken down by weapon used

While the raw numbers are accurate, you're forgetting the USA is the third most populous country on Earth, after China and India. The proper way to do this is to look at the murder rate, which is usually per 100,000 population. 662 murders in a country with 330 million people translates to a rate of 0.20 per 100,000. Aside from some small countries with no murders at all, only Singapore at 0.16 has a murder rate below 0.2. Japan is 0.26.

 

[Nessie]

While the raw numbers are accurate, you're forgetting the USA is the third most populous country on Earth, after China and India. The proper way to do this is to look at the murder rate, which is usually per 100,000 population. 662 murders in a country with 330 million people translates to a rate of 0.20 per 100,000. Aside from some small countries with no murders at all, only Singapore at 0.16 has a murder rate below 0.2. Japan is 0.26.

Which suggests Americans shoot each other because of easy access to guns, and take those guns away, they would just use something else to kill each other. That would reduce the murder rate, since guns are more effective killers than knives or clubs, but it may increase the attempt murder rate, as more attempts to kill fail due to the weapon used.

A good rate to examine is A&E admissions for injuries caused by violence. That is a strong indocator of how overall violent a society is.

 

[bluesjnr]

While the raw numbers are accurate, you're forgetting the USA is the third most populous country on Earth, after China and India. The proper way to do this is to look at the murder rate, which is usually per 100,000 population. 662 murders in a country with 330 million people translates to a rate of 0.20 per 100,000. Aside from some small countries with no murders at all, only Singapore at 0.16 has a murder rate below 0.2. Japan is 0.26.

US is currently around 55th in world rankings for intentional murder rates.

Don't fret though you're a hard 2nd behind Brazil for gun deaths. Go USA!