Titanic tourist sub missing

[jeremyp]

I would imagine that there are people who were on the ship topside who know things but have not spoken publicly about what they know. However, they may have spoken in private to others.


Here's a video from a guy talking about the wreckage, from the photos we've seen of it being removed from the ship:



You can see that there are titanium rings that have separated from the titanium end caps. He also thinks it could be up to a year before they (NTSB et al) finish their analysis and issue a report.

I'd take that man's conclusions with a pinch of salt. He thought the text messaging system was based on VLF radio and he doubled down when one of the commenters pointed out his error.

 

[alfaniner]

I have to wonder if a recording survived, even a voice recording. I would imagine they would somehow be documenting the dive.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I have to wonder if a recording survived, even a voice recording. I would imagine they would somehow be documenting the dive.

Damn thing was running off the 3rd party "Player 2" controller you made your little brother use. What are the odds it had a black box?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Wouldn't they probably have been making video's of the inside of the vessel and the passengers during the ' voyage' ?

Of, course it remains to be seen if any recording devices are found, or what would be made public in any event.

 

[Ernie M]

I assume that once the forensics folks have had a chance to examine the debris that was salvaged, we will have a definitive answer as to exactly what the point of failure was?

I hope there will be definitive answers as to exactly what the point of failure was.

There were numerous problematic issues with the materials used, the design, and the construction of, 'Titan.' I consider another problematic failure was, how Stockton Rush and others at OceanGate, portrayed 'Titan.'

James Cameron pointed out three potential failure points in the investigation
in an ABC News interview:

• Acrylic viewport
• Two glass spheres on the sub(mersible) for flotation
• Carbon fiber composite cylinder

Cameron said he was told the viewport window was rated to less depth than they were diving it to.

James Cameron said if he had to "put money down on what the finding will be, the Achille's heel of the sub was the composite cylinder. That was the main hull that the people were inside."

James Cameron noted that the carbon fiber cylinder failed, and said, "...the question is, was it the primary failure, or a secondary failure from something else happening?"

James Cameron said about the problematic sub design:

"So this was trying to apply aviation thinking, to a deep-submergence engineering problem. We all said that it was um, you know, a flawed idea. And they didn't go through certification."

I believe the investigations will look into issues of the carbon fiber/plastic (resin/epxoy) interface delaminating, and, inter-plastic crack initiation. Testing and investigation will likely look for delamination, transverse cracking, fiber fracture, longitudinal cracking. And understanding about the acrylic viewport window. Among other things.

Frayed carbon fibers made air/gas pockets that failed?

I wonder if a key critical area to look at for the primary cause of failure, are the machined and cut ends of the carbon fiber cylinder.

I get the sense that the resultant machining actions to cut and square up the carbon fiber cylinder, that the machining produced rough, and frayed exposed carbon fiber/epoxy.

That machining may have made tiny cracks in the epoxy, and, fractured carbon fibers. Frayed-and-splayed carbon fibers, and cracked epoxy, may have caused air/gas pockets.

Even though the cylinder ends were coated in a thin film of epoxy when glued to the titanium rings. And if those exposed and weakened fibers and epoxy is not properly coated and protected, it's likely air bubbles were introduced. And there were likely air/gas bubbles when they hand-mixed the two-part epoxy. And those air/gas bubbles would've shrank and expanded over cycling from repeated dive depths. I don't think the assembling or finishing of the CF cylinder removed or minimized the frayed-and-splayed carbon fibers, or removed problematic air/gas bubbles?

I get the sense that those carbon fiber/epoxy cylinder ends that were epoxied into the titanium rings may have been the primary cause of failure? The cylinder ends may have been where cracks and delamination of the carbon fiber/epoxy started, and spread...until catastrophic failure that led to 'Titan's' implosion.

Investigations will likely provide detailed answers about what failed in the flawed materials choices, design choices, construction methods, and how 'Titan' was portrayed by OceanGate and Stockton Rush.



ABC News. 2023, June 24. 'Titanic' filmmaker James Cameron calls out 'three potential failure points' on Titan submersible [Video]. YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gChdkuq6gi8

 

[whoanellie]

I'd take that man's conclusions with a pinch of salt. He thought the text messaging system was based on VLF radio and he doubled down when one of the commenters pointed out his error.

He also says that the window may have been removed to assist those recovering the wreckage to lift the end cap. I find that hard to believe they would have altered the evidence like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Cameron told ABC News that he believes the Titan's hull began to crack under pressure and that its inside sensors gave the passengers a warning to that effect.

I can see where he's coming from, but after getting more information, my (again: uniformed) opinion is that he's wrong.

1. As someone else said, once a fatal crack actually happens, it propagates at the speed of sound in that material. In carbon fibre - epoxy composite, that means about 11000 km/s along the fibre, and about 3000 km/s perpendicular to the fibre. This thing could implode several times over, literally before the information even goes along the nerves to the brain.

2. As I was saying, that's a deliberately flimsy rope holding those weights, and which started dissolving in seawater as soon as that thing got put into water. The idea that it would be intact unless manually released, after a depth-charge like catastrophic event, is just not supportable, way I see it.

 

[Myriad]

I can see where he's coming from, but after getting more information, my (again: uniformed) opinion is that he's wrong.

1. As someone else said, once a fatal crack actually happens, it propagates at the speed of sound in that material. In carbon fibre - epoxy composite, that means about 11000 km/s along the fibre, and about 3000 km/s perpendicular to the fibre. This thing could implode several times over, literally before the information even goes along the nerves to the brain.

2. As I was saying, that's a deliberately flimsy rope holding those weights, and which started dissolving in seawater as soon as that thing got put into water. The idea that it would be intact unless manually released, after a depth-charge like catastrophic event, is just not supportable, way I see it.

I'm hopeful that the investigations will include hydrodynamic analysis based on where the drop weights landed relative to the other debris, that will reveal if the weights were more than a few meters (or whatever resolution they can manage with that analysis) away from the pressure hull when it imploded.

 

[bruto]

He also says that the window may have been removed to assist those recovering the wreckage to lift the end cap. I find that hard to believe they would have altered the evidence like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The question of whether the window was removed for recovery seems extremely easy to answer. I would presume those doing the recovery could say yes or no.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm just wondering how long before that scene from the Abyss or something like it gets passed around Facebook or Tiktok claiming to be footage.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I'm hopeful that the investigations will include hydrodynamic analysis based on where the drop weights landed relative to the other debris, that will reveal if the weights were more than a few meters (or whatever resolution they can manage with that analysis) away from the pressure hull when it imploded.

And I'm saying it still doesn't mean a bloody thing. We're talking some intentionally flimsy, half-dissolved rope vs an event literally comparable to a depth charge. Expecting that cord to still be intact unless intentionally released, in that kind of a shockwave is just non-supportable. It's like concluding that if you only found a pair of boots from a crew member, it means he had taken everything else off.

 

[Myriad]

And I'm saying it still doesn't mean a bloody thing. We're talking some intentionally flimsy, half-dissolved rope vs an event literally comparable to a depth charge. Expecting that cord to still be intact unless intentionally released, in that kind of a shockwave is just non-supportable. It's like concluding that if you only found a pair of boots from a crew member, it means he had taken everything else off.

I'm not talking about the condition of the fusible links if found. I'm talking about the debris dispersal pattern.

If all the weights detached as a direct result of the implosion (as one would expect they would, since as you keep pointing out they're designed to detach easily in various ways) then they'd land in certain positions relative to the other debris.

If they were detached a minute or two earlier, indicating that the crew were aware of some problem and had time to initiate an ascent, they'd land in different positions relative to the other debris.

If they were detached only a few seconds before the implosion, then the results will probably be too similar to tell the difference from case 1. However, there may be other forensic evidence that can differentiate, such as finding a linkage (other than the fusible dissolving ones) and being able to judge whether it was released intact, or broken from sudden tension. Or perhaps being able to determine, from the damage to a weight (some of which were, I recall reading, pieces of metal pipe), whether or not it was in its normal riding position when the implosion occurred, or if not, its approximate distance.

 

[Ernie M]

I can see where he's coming from, but after getting more information, my (again: uniformed) opinion is that he's wrong.

1. As someone else said, once a fatal crack actually happens, it propagates at the speed of sound in that material. In carbon fibre - epoxy composite, that means about 11000 km/s along the fibre, and about 3000 km/s perpendicular to the fibre. This thing could implode several times over, literally before the information even goes along the nerves to the brain.

2. As I was saying, that's a deliberately flimsy rope holding those weights, and which started dissolving in seawater as soon as that thing got put into water. The idea that it would be intact unless manually released, after a depth-charge like catastrophic event, is just not supportable, way I see it.

I'm hopeful that the investigations will include hydrodynamic analysis based on where the drop weights landed relative to the other debris, that will reveal if the weights were more than a few meters (or whatever resolution they can manage with that analysis) away from the pressure hull when it imploded.

I hope the investigation includes high-resolution imagery of the 'Titan' wreckage, like how Magellan Ltd. got stunning composite imagery of the Titanic with their submersibles Romeo, and Juliet. Rebecca Morelle and Alison Francis wrote the article, Titanic: First ever full-sized scans reveal wreck as never seen before. bbc.com. 17 May 2023.

The Magellan submersibles were remotely controlled. As reported in the bbc.com article, "They took more than 700,000 images from every angle, creating an exact 3D reconstruction."

I don't think Magellan used its submersibles to capture images of 'Titan.'

Maybe the 'Titan' recovery team took images, so maybe there's a plan view of the wreckage, to show what 'Titan' debris landed where. The plan view would be a view looking down from above.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

@Myriad
There was literally no other connection between the weights and the hull than that dissolving cord. That's what made it a failsafe. (Well, for a certain mode of failure.) So there won't be anything left of that cord to analyze right now.

Well... you obviously have something in mind for what you'd be looking for, with position and all. I can't imagine it, but then I have a finite imagination. So, best of luck with that, in any case.

 

[Axxman300]

Cameron told ABC News that he believes the Titan's hull began to crack under pressure and that its inside sensors gave the passengers a warning to that effect.
"We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency," he said.

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/23/1183975136/james-cameron-titanic-titan-sub


He didn't say how they knew this, or if it was speculation.


This was one area (dropping the weights) where there was some redundancy. It probably wasn't the dissolving cord since this was early in the mission.

I believe one of Titan's safety features were microphones that monitored the composite section of hull to alert for "Uh Oh" sounds.

 

[Axxman300]

Titan had made ten successful (*) dives to Titanic, which for it's design, is an achievement in a way. The investigation will probably ask why it didn't implode on Dive #1 as much as why it failed (which doesn't seem to be a big mystery). I hope they publish photos of the wreckage for the public. I assume those images will be circulated through the Marine engineering community at some point.

And whatever's left on the bottom will end up on Youtube at some point from future dives...because now there's something else to gawk at.

 

[jimbob]

Yeah, that's my thinking, cutting corners. If the CF body wasn't done right first that makes the weak point interface area you note even worse as the CF composite in that interface area expands and contracts on dives, basically just working itself loose.

If the joining epoxy is cured in an autoclave, then you have even more thermomechanical stresses when it's at the temperature of the sea. Carbon fibre composite apparently has a wide range of possible coefficients of expansion, including this website saying that some can be negative. It's almost certainly going to be different from both the glue and the Titanium. Likewise their response to pressure.

 

[BrettM]

....whatever's left on the bottom will end up on Youtube at some point from future dives....

And after that, ebay!

 

[newyorkguy]

Can't Make This Stuff Up Dept.

Various news outlets have noticed and reported -- so presumably this is not a very bad taste spoof -- that OceanGate began advertising for a Submersible Pilot/Marine Technician last Friday (June 23rd) after the people on board the Titan were presumed dead. MSN reports:

OceanGate, the company that built the Titanic submersible, is searching for a 'Submersible Pilot/Marine Technician'. The job advertisement, which was posted on Friday, one day after all five passengers on board were presumed dead, has been met with outrage. The post has since been removed from the company’s website. MSN news link

[IMGW=700]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1474&pictureid=13578[/IMGW]

Hey people, life goes on, you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs, yadda-yadda-yadda.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Various news outlets have noticed and reported -- so presumably this is not a very bad taste spoof -- that OceanGate began advertising for a Submersible Pilot/Marine Technician last Friday (June 23rd) after the people on board the Titan were presumed dead. MSN reports:


[IMGW=700]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1474&pictureid=13578[/IMGW]

Hey people, life goes on, you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs, yadda-yadda-yadda.

"Successful Candidates must have successfully negotiated with one of more Ocean-based Deities. Hands-on experience with Necromancy a plus."