Titanic tourist sub missing

[SpuriusMaximus]

Also, on the topic of having warning: the whole sound monitoring system was actually just about useless. At least one previous passenger said he was uncomfortable with the level of creaking and cracking noises, which were dismissed as normal... even though it was the trip after which the hull had to be repaired in 2022. (So yeah, in 2023 we're talking about a hull which had been basically plastered over because it was already starting to fail.)

And then there's also the bit from the engineer that blew the whistle on it being unsafe, and got sued for it. Apparently at the level where that monitoring stuff would actually decide that the hull is delaminating, AND you're on the way down, you had like a millisecond or two before implosion. To put it into perspective, even if it started flashing a red light and blaring a horn, it's literally not enough time for the information to reach the brains between that, and said brain being turned into a thin red paste.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

What I find fascinating is that private submarine/submersible manufactory seems to have been one of the few Libertarian success stories - right up until Rush:

the few players (like Cameron) seems to have exchanged knowhow and managed to built and operate a number of machines at various depths with not a single casualty in over a decade.

They even tried to police their territory, with open letters to warn people about the risk of the Titan construction and operation.

Yes, well, that's the general problem with libertarian and anarchist arguments. Yeah, you don't need the laws and regulations for the majority of the population, but you do need them for the small minority of nutcases and psychopaths.

I mean, you also didn't need the FDA to regulate medicine, right up until the the Sulfanilamide disaster. (Short version: sulfa was an effective antibiotic, but only as pills. So one company decided to sell it as elixir dissolved in 70% diethylene glycol. Yeah, the active substance in antifreeze. Except it's a few percent even in antifreeze, this was like 10-20 times more concentrated poison.)

 

[Puppycow]

I assume that once the forensics folks have had a chance to examine the debris that was salvaged, we will have a definitive answer as to exactly what the point of failure was?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Yes, well, that's the general problem with libertarian and anarchist arguments. Yeah, you don't need the laws and regulations for the majority of the population, but you do need them for the small minority of nutcases and psychopaths.

I mean, you also didn't need the FDA to regulate medicine, right up until the the Sulfanilamide disaster. (Short version: sulfa was an effective antibiotic, but only as pills. So one company decided to sell it as elixir dissolved in 70% diethylene glycol. Yeah, the active substance in antifreeze. Except it's a few percent even in antifreeze, this was like 10-20 times more concentrated poison.)

But the business Rush had was strictly for the very wealthy - people who had resources and practice of doing a due-diligence before risking their lives on his hail-mary machine. Their minions could have easily found the warnings - many had, as we have learned by now, and they still paid and went. That is as good as Informed Consent as you can get, especially when it comes to a product that no one on earth actually needs.

Drugs/supplements are a completely different kettle of fish, since users probably don't have the resources to do a thorough investigation and might not have the option of doing without.

My biggest problem with the Titan disaster is not what happened to the passengers, but who is going to pay for the massive rescue effort.
The people on board could have, and probably did, know better, but wanted the thrill. Same thing happens to free climbers or base jumpers - the risk of dying IS the attraction.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Maybe but then what is left of the Libertarian or Anarchist arguments? That they only work when all the people involved are billionaires?

 

[The Man]

But the business Rush had was strictly for the very wealthy - people who had resources and practice of doing a due-diligence before risking their lives on his hail-mary machine. Their minions could have easily found the warnings - many had, as we have learned by now, and they still paid and went. That is as good as Informed Consent as you can get, especially when it comes to a product that no one on earth actually needs.

Drugs/supplements are a completely different kettle of fish, since users probably don't have the resources to do a thorough investigation and might not have the option of doing without.

My biggest problem with the Titan disaster is not what happened to the passengers, but who is going to pay for the massive rescue effort.
The people on board could have, and probably did, know better, but wanted the thrill. Same thing happens to free climbers or base jumpers - the risk of dying IS the attraction.

They also had the money to pay for decent ****, think anything else in their lives was substandard? Heck even just standard would likely be below them. The cheap out excuse for high end passengers is the same BS Rush was feeding himself. Yeah, they skimp on the maintenance for their personal jet or Bentley because the risk of dying IS the attraction.

 

[Puppycow]

Maybe but then what is left of the Libertarian or Anarchist arguments? That they only work when all the people involved are billionaires?

Apparently not even then.

How did the genius Steve Jobs treat his cancer diagnosis? With "acupuncture, botanicals, and dietary changes", at least for over half a year before opting for surgery. Of course, there is a limit to how much the government should try to regulate and take away the power of individuals to make their own decisions. A libertarian or anarchist might look at this situation and simply declare that there is no problem. They all made the decision of their own free will and even signed a waiver that explicitly stated that there was a risk of dying. Also, now everyone else knows about this. It should inform other people if/when they consider making a similar decision.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Maybe but then what is left of the Libertarian or Anarchist arguments? That they only work when all the people involved are billionaires?

Yes, Exactly.

We don't need a social safety net for billionaires.
We also don't need to feel sad if they die in easily avoidable ways.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Weird position, but ok, at least it's not the usual arguments where basically what works for billionaires should be good (in fact: better) for everyone else.

 

[The Man]

Apparently not even then.

How did the genius Steve Jobs treat his cancer diagnosis? With "acupuncture, botanicals, and dietary changes", at least for over half a year before opting for surgery. Of course, there is a limit to how much the government should try to regulate and take away the power of individuals to make their own decisions. A libertarian or anarchist might look at this situation and simply declare that there is no problem. They all made the decision of their own free will and even signed a waiver that explicitly stated that there was a risk of dying. Also, now everyone else knows about this. It should inform other people if/when they consider making a similar decision.

Exactly, like any aircraft crash or ferry sinking the salvage and investigation operations have to happen, to inform. The industry and the people who might put their lives upon the standards, if any, of that industry.

 

[Puppycow]

In a way, it's accidents like this that spur progress.

It's why nobody fills zeppelins with hydrogen anymore. People learn that "Hey, that's actually not a safe thing to do. Let's stop doing that and figure out a better way."

 

[The Man]

In a way, it's accidents like this that spur progress.

It's why nobody fills zeppelins with hydrogen anymore. People learn that "Hey, that's actually not a safe thing to do. Let's stop doing that and figure out a better way."

Again, exactly and why you have to figure out what exactly happened first. Though from the information linked here, filling the pressure vessel with hydrogen and sparking a flame might have been less risky. The sad part being better ways were already figured out and used for decades, by the very independents who tried to sound warnings about this venture.

 

[The Man]

You know, I was thinking a prestressed construction (on the carbon fibers) might have been a contributing failure factor. However, just the basic compressional stress in well known CF production curing seems not only beyond them but deliberately avoided. Just the titanium end caps as a bathysphere might have been better.

 

[a_unique_person]

Again, exactly and why you have to figure out what exactly happened first. Though from the information linked here, filling the pressure vessel with hydrogen and sparking a flame might have been less risky. The sad part being better ways were already figured out and used for decades, by the very independents who tried to sound warnings about this venture.

Risk assessment and management has also advanced a lot since the time of the hydrogen Zeppelin. Knowledge sharing and availability ditto.

 

[The Man]

Risk assessment and management has also advanced a lot since the time of the hydrogen Zeppelin. Knowledge sharing and availability ditto.

Sure risk assessment and management has advanced but when outpaced by apparently deliberate ignorance of well known production methods, that’s just negligence. Which despite efforts to curtail, still persists and advances.

Heck, I never designed, produced or was involved with anything using carbon fibers and I’m even familiar with the production methods and why they are used. Even back when they first became, at least somewhat, cost effective. We looked at using it for an alternative to the fiberglass shells we were producing at the time but the costs were just still too prohibitive at that time.

 

[Marcus]

Actually, without studying the actual position and all in detail (nor being qualified), I'd say we don't know for sure.

It turns out that the counter-weights were tied with something that slowly dissolves in salt water, so after a number of hours (I don't remember the exact number) the weights would drop on their own, even if the crew is dead or the rest of the system is borked. Sort of a cheap safety feature. So my (again, unqualified) take is that:

1. There's also the possibility that, given it was found after days, of course they would no longer be tied.

2. There is also the possibility that depth-charge-like event just threw them or the bars they were attached to off. We're talking just some pipes tied with some intentionally flimsy sorta-rope that was already half-way through dissolving by the time it happened. When the whole thing goes bang dramatically enough, I don't expect that cord to be the part that survives it intact.

3. That also tells me that the whole dramatic scenario where they thought they're alive and banging on the hull should have been known to be bogus after the first day. By then the sub should have popped up on its own, just by virtue of that cord dissolving.

Cameron told ABC News that he believes the Titan's hull began to crack under pressure and that its inside sensors gave the passengers a warning to that effect.
"We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency," he said.

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/23/1183975136/james-cameron-titanic-titan-sub


He didn't say how they knew this, or if it was speculation.


This was one area (dropping the weights) where there was some redundancy. It probably wasn't the dissolving cord since this was early in the mission.

 

[Puppycow]

He didn't say how they knew this, or if it was speculation.

I would imagine that there are people who were on the ship topside who know things but have not spoken publicly about what they know. However, they may have spoken in private to others.


Here's a video from a guy talking about the wreckage, from the photos we've seen of it being removed from the ship:



You can see that there are titanium rings that have separated from the titanium end caps. He also thinks it could be up to a year before they (NTSB et al) finish their analysis and issue a report.

 

[JoeMorgue]

In a way, it's accidents like this that spur progress.

It's why nobody fills zeppelins with hydrogen anymore. People learn that "Hey, that's actually not a safe thing to do. Let's stop doing that and figure out a better way."

Yeah except we already knew not to build deep submersibles out of carbon fiber, that's why nobody does it. We didn't need a demonstration that cost 5 lives to prove it was a bad idea.

This didn't happen to eccentric inventor while stress testing a new submersible design. That would have been stupid but it would have been a radically different thing. He was taking tourist on a joy ride for money.

This is like if someone starting a business flying hydrogen blimps over active volcanoes for a quarter million a pop.

 

[jeremyp]

Ummmm I can't actually RECOMMEND anyone doing this because it is extremely Not Safe for Life but I've seen the pictures of the bodies after the Byford Dolphin accident (I will NOT link to them here but they are on the internet if you want to go find them but serious and final, no joke warning, extreme gore) and... it's weird what survives and what doesn't.

Pressure and the human body are both weird in how they reaction to things.

ETA: For clarification/expanding info the Byford Dolphin was an oil rig who in 1983 suffered a horrible decompression accident that killed 5 members of the saturation diving crew when a valve between airlocks was opened improperly between one side of the airlock at 1 atmosphere) and another (at between 8 and 9 atmospheres) which caused, to put it bluntly, the 4 men inside the airlock to pretty much instantly be sucked through a 24 inch opening with incredible force, force enough to flash cook the fat cells in their blood, with the men basically being completely liquified but sections of their bodies, including a complete and intact liver which "looked as perfect as if it had been surgically removed" where also found. (The 5th man was a safety observer killed by explosive decompression)

Only one of the men was sucked out. He was the one trying to close the hatch. All of the body parts outside the chamber were his and he was dismembered by being forced through a very tiny gap between the hatch and the wall. The other men inside were intact but very dead. Their blood boiled more or less instantaneously. Also killed was one of the tenders outside (the one who erroneously opened the clamp - the diving bell hit him. The other tender was severely injured.

 

[jeremyp]

Yeah except we already knew not to build deep submersibles out of carbon fiber, that's why nobody does it.

One person did.

We didn't need a demonstration that cost 5 lives to prove it was a bad idea.

Well one person did. Unfortunately, he's dead now.

Being less facetious, people have crazy and apparently stupid ideas all the time. Quite often they cannot be persuaded that their ideas are crazy and stupid except with a practical demonstration. Occasionally, the crazy and stupid idea actually works, in which case the person who had it is hailed as a visionary. No doubt Stockton Rush thought his crazy stupid idea fell into the second category.

This didn't happen to eccentric inventor while stress testing a new submersible design. That would have been stupid but it would have been a radically different thing. He was taking tourist on a joy ride for money.

He needed the passengers to finance his operation. The trouble is that he was a True Believer and he thought it was therefore OK to take people's money for joy rides.