Titanic tourist sub missing

Somehow I don't think there's any way to make a connection between "doing any testing on our products is for losers" and intelligence.

Sure, if people had known that, but he wasn’t saying anything like that publicly. He made a big show of everything being extensively tested. I just don’t think it’s fair to blame passengers. Imo the passengers were misled by a convincing salesman who fell for his own hype.

His claim that there was no way to do non-destructive testing on the hull was a behind-the-scenes statement that ended up documented as part of a legal dispute with a former employee. Oceangate and the employee eventually settled for an undisclosed amount and the knowledge of subpar testing wasn’t publicly known (& possibly not accessible) until after June 18, 2023, when the Titan went missing (& had likely imploded).
 
Correction to my post 723:

I incorrectly said the adhesive color that was used to glue the carbon fiber hull to the Titanium interface caps was green. According to an OceanGate video, "Bonding the Titanium Ring and the Carbon Fiber Hull," the correct color of the adhesive is gray.



Let's hope it wasn't just PL construction adhesive.


PL construction adhesive was NOT used to join the carbon fiber hull to Titanium interface rings.

That would be scary if PL (Polyurethane based) construction adhesive was used, but from the video it appears that PL construction adhesive was NOT used.

PL construction adhesive is typically a one-component adhesive that comes in a tube; you put the tube in a caulking gun and apply. I don't see that in the video.

Two-part epoxy was likely used to glue the carbon fiber hull to the Titanium interface caps

I get the sense a two-part epoxy was used to join the segment 1 titanium ring to the carbon fiber pressure hull.

I see two metal cans, one larger can (less that a gallon?) and one smaller, sitting in an aluminum (cooking/oven) pan. Maybe about the size pan used for a 10 lb ham in the oven. The small metal can has a large tongue depressor looking-stick stuck in it. I infer that the man is mixing two-part epoxy with a large (about 24" long) wooden paint stirrer. He's mixing (what I believe is the two-part) epoxy in a wide-mouth plastic bucket/can, that has a handle. The mixture appears medium-gray in color.

From the video, it appears that hard plastic auto putty spreaders were used to apply the two-part(?) epoxy mix to one of the carbon fiber hull ends, and inside a recessed area in a Titanium interface cap. An approximately 12" long concrete hand float(?) is visible sitting on top of the carbon fiber cylinder, and was likely used as the final skim on the flat surface of the approximately 5" thick carbon fiber hull ends.

I'm struck by the fact that the shoulders of C-shape recess in the Titanium interface cap may be around 2 1/4" deep! That's not a lot of surface for CF to stick to.

The epoxy joinery of the CF cylinder pressure vessel to the Titanium interface caps doesn't provide much grip area. That joinery area needs to be strong, have good adherence, be water-proof, and have some degree of flexibility so it doesn't crack, and won't corrode.

The epoxy was hand-mixed using a wooden stirrer. I didn't see any container used to pull a vacuum on the mixed epoxy, so it is highly probable that air (bubbles) were introduced. Air bubbles in the mix are NOT GOOD!

Air bubbles will shrink and expand during cycling (diving to and from the surface) during pressure and temperature extremes. The cycling would likely cause delamination and cracking of the carbon fiber.

Those epoxied end-joins where the carbon fiber butts against the Titanium are likely to prone to failure.

The CF is 'captured' in a shallow valley of Titanium. CF (along with the epoxy that glues the CF together), the Titanium, and epoxy that glues the CF to the Titanium, are three different materials. Each material shrinks and expands differently. The joinery may have had a high potential to fail.

I don't know the location of the implosion: it could've been the viewport window; viewport bolts; carbon fiber pressure vessel along its length or towards the middle; CF pressure vessel on an end/shoulder where epoxied to the Titanium interface cap; the bolts (were Titanium nuts and bolts used, so the metals are the same as the Titanium interface caps & Titanium end caps, so there's no galvanic corrosion?) that held the Titanium interface caps to a Titanium end cap; or something else failed? Were Titanium nuts and bolts used, so the metals are the same as the Titanium interface caps & Titanium end caps, so there's no galvanic corrosion?

'Titan' crew likely had warning the hull was starting to delaminate, and heard cracking, before 'Titan' imploded.

I believe the 'Titan' crew members, like James Cameron mentioned; the crew likely had warning the hull was starting to delaminate and was cracking, before 'Titan' catastrophically imploded.
 
PL construction adhesive was NOT used to join the carbon fiber hull to Titanium interface rings.

That would be scary if PL (Polyurethane based) construction adhesive was used, but from the video it appears that PL construction adhesive was NOT used.

PL construction adhesive is typically a one-component adhesive that comes in a tube; you put the tube in a caulking gun and apply. I don't see that in the video.

Two-part epoxy was likely used to glue the carbon fiber hull to the Titanium interface caps

I get the sense a two-part epoxy was used to join the segment 1 titanium ring to the carbon fiber pressure hull.

I see two metal cans, one larger can (less that a gallon?) and one smaller, sitting in an aluminum (cooking/oven) pan. Maybe about the size pan used for a 10 lb ham in the oven. The small metal can has a large tongue depressor looking-stick stuck in it. I infer that the man is mixing two-part epoxy with a large (about 24" long) wooden paint stirrer. He's mixing (what I believe is the two-part) epoxy in a wide-mouth plastic bucket/can, that has a handle. The mixture appears medium-gray in color.

From the video, it appears that hard plastic auto putty spreaders were used to apply the two-part(?) epoxy mix to one of the carbon fiber hull ends, and inside a recessed area in a Titanium interface cap. An approximately 12" long concrete hand float(?) is visible sitting on top of the carbon fiber cylinder, and was likely used as the final skim on the flat surface of the approximately 5" thick carbon fiber hull ends.

I'm struck by the fact that the shoulders of C-shape recess in the Titanium interface cap may be around 2 1/4" deep! That's not a lot of surface for CF to stick to.

The epoxy joinery of the CF cylinder pressure vessel to the Titanium interface caps doesn't provide much grip area. That joinery area needs to be strong, have good adherence, be water-proof, and have some degree of flexibility so it doesn't crack, and won't corrode.

The epoxy was hand-mixed using a wooden stirrer. I didn't see any container used to pull a vacuum on the mixed epoxy, so it is highly probable that air (bubbles) were introduced. Air bubbles in the mix are NOT GOOD!

Air bubbles will shrink and expand during cycling (diving to and from the surface) during pressure and temperature extremes. The cycling would likely cause delamination and cracking of the carbon fiber.

Those epoxied end-joins where the carbon fiber butts against the Titanium are likely to prone to failure.

The CF is 'captured' in a shallow valley of Titanium. CF (along with the epoxy that glues the CF together), the Titanium, and epoxy that glues the CF to the Titanium, are three different materials. Each material shrinks and expands differently. The joinery may have had a high potential to fail.

I don't know the location of the implosion: it could've been the viewport window; viewport bolts; carbon fiber pressure vessel along its length or towards the middle; CF pressure vessel on an end/shoulder where epoxied to the Titanium interface cap; the bolts (were Titanium nuts and bolts used, so the metals are the same as the Titanium interface caps & Titanium end caps, so there's no galvanic corrosion?) that held the Titanium interface caps to a Titanium end cap; or something else failed? Were Titanium nuts and bolts used, so the metals are the same as the Titanium interface caps & Titanium end caps, so there's no galvanic corrosion?

'Titan' crew likely had warning the hull was starting to delaminate, and heard cracking, before 'Titan' imploded.

I believe the 'Titan' crew members, like James Cameron mentioned; the crew likely had warning the hull was starting to delaminate and was cracking, before 'Titan' catastrophically imploded.


Any sign of heating the epoxy before application? That's another way of getting rid of the bubbles.
 
I don't know if the video linked above shows 'Titan's' construction.

If it's a different hull assembly other than what was known as 'Titan', it's possible the materials and methods used in 'Titan' may have been (slightly) different.
 
PL construction adhesive was NOT used to join the carbon fiber hull to Titanium interface rings.

Just joking,

though to your other point before, the epoxy resin for the carbon fiber construct itself is generally cured in an oven or autoclave. While the former won’t do much about traped gas pockets the latter would. Don’t know much about how the main body pressure shell was cured here. Oven, autoclave or vacuum chamber. While separation of the Titanium end caps and mounting rings seems a likely cause of failure. Was even just the CF pressure hull itself produced to the best methods available?
 
Any sign of heating the epoxy before application? That's another way of getting rid of the bubbles.

I didn't see any sign of heating the epoxy before application, or after application, in the OceanGate video.

But I know enough to say that pulling a strong vacuum on the resin would draw out the air (bubbles) from the hand-mixed epoxy. I don't know how much vacuum, or how long...experimentation would've given answers.

I don't know how much work time the epoxy had after it was mixed. I believe they had three men applying the epoxy.

I also don't know if the carbon fiber cylinder hull had epoxy that had a vacuum pulled before that epoxy was applied.

I don't know if the assembly was put into a giant oven to cure.

OceanGate video didn't show the entire epoxy process; I see what appears to be blue (painter's?) tape on the uppermost outer edge of the Titanium ring. And they didn't show the hand float (if used?) being used. They didn't show the brand name (manufacturer) of the epoxy. (The manufacturer name may be on a label on the large metal can, but the 420 video resolution I can't read it, but I'm not going to mention any name or possible name. It's not the epoxy manufacturer's fault for how their product was used in this instance.) OceanGate's video doesn't say how long it took the epoxy to cure. They don't say if the assembly was heated after the assembly was glued together. I didn't see any dust collection to keep the air clean of potential contaminates that could get on surfaces that may cause later bonding/glue failure.

I'm surprised they got as many deep dives on 'Titan' before it catastrophically imploded. All things considered, 'Titan' stuck together well, while it lasted.
 
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I didn't see any sign of heating the epoxy before application, or after application, in the OceanGate video.

But I know enough to say that pulling a strong vacuum on the resin would draw out the air (bubbles) from the hand-mixed epoxy. I don't know how much vacuum, or how long...experimentation would indicate if that's good or not to do.

I don't know how much work time the epoxy had after it was mixed. I believe they had three men applying the epoxy.

I also don't know if the carbon fiber cylinder hull had epoxy that had a vacuum pulled before that epoxy was applied.

I don't know if the assembly was put into a giant oven to cure.

OceanGate video didn't show the entire epoxy process; I see what appears to be blue (painter's?) tape on the uppermost outer edge of the Titanium ring. And they didn't show the hand float (if used?) being used. They didn't show the brand name (manufacturer) of the epoxy. They don't say how long it took the epoxy to cure. They don't say if the assembly was heated after the assembly was glued together. I didn't see any dust collection to keep the air clean of potential contaminates that could get on surfaces that may cause later bonding/glue failure.

I'm surprised they got as many deep dives on 'Titan' before it catastrophically imploded. All things considered, 'Titan' stuck together well, while it lasted.

Yeah, that's my thinking, cutting corners. If the CF body wasn't done right first that makes the weak point interface area you note even worse as the CF composite in that interface area expands and contracts on dives, basically just working itself loose.
 
Here's some information from the CompositesWorld link that I posted earlier in the thread:

The biggest challenge, Spencer reports, was developing a manufacturable design that “would produce a consistent part with no wrinkles, voids or delaminations.” And without use of an autoclave. Spencer opted for a layup strategy that combines alternating placement of prepreg carbon fiber/epoxy unidirectional fabrics in the axial direction, with wet winding of carbon fiber/epoxy in the hoop direction, for a total of 480 plies. The carbon fiber is standard-modulus Grafil 37-800 (30K tow), supplied by Mitsubishi Chemical Carbon Fiber & Composites Inc. (Irvine, CA, US). Prepreg was supplied by Irvine-based Newport Composites, now part of Mitsubishi Chemical Carbon Fiber & Composites Inc. The wet-winding epoxy is Epon Resin 682 from Hexion Inc. (Columbus, OH, US). The curing agent is Lindride LS-81K frLindau Chemicals Inc.cals (Columbia, SC, US).


....

After layup and winding was complete, the cylinder was bagged with cellowrap and then cured in an oven at 137°C for 7 days. There was no postcure. Spencer says initial assessment of the cured cylinder shows that it has porosity of <1%. As CW went to press, the cylinder was being prepared for machining to cut it to length, square up the ends and bond it to the titanium end caps.

That alone was so disturbing to read the first time, that I was kind of glad that the article didn't get into how the "two titanium interface caps" were "bonded to each open end of the hull."

...and then there was this:

“They basically said, ‘This is the pressure we have to meet, this is the factor of safety, this is the basic envelope. Go design and build it,’” Spencer reports. And he was given six weeks in which to do it.

https://www.compositesworld.com/art...#carouselae323cca-6ad8-4de8-9b66-75a9cb083bbf
 
Here's some information from the CompositesWorld link that I posted earlier in the thread:



That alone was so disturbing to read the first time, that I was kind of glad that the article didn't get into how the "two titanium interface caps" were "bonded to each open end of the hull."

...and then there was this:



https://www.compositesworld.com/art...#carouselae323cca-6ad8-4de8-9b66-75a9cb083bbf

Holy ****, so they deliberately avoided using an autoclave! Seriously, wrinkles is your concern? That's not just cutting corners that’s cross cut shredding the whole shebang.

ETA: I'm now even more surprised that it made 3 dives before some problems were noted and purportedly corrected.
 
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PL construction adhesive was NOT used to join the carbon fiber hull to Titanium interface rings.

Just joking,

though to your other point before, the epoxy resin for the carbon fiber construct itself is generally cured in an oven or autoclave. While the former won’t do much about traped gas pockets the latter would. Don’t know much about how the main body pressure shell was cured here. Oven, autoclave or vacuum chamber. While separation of the Titanium end caps and mounting rings seems a likely cause of failure. Was even just the CF pressure hull itself produced to the best methods available?

I apologize for taking your comment seriously when I failed to understand you were making fun.

Stockton Rush used more than one, off-the-shelf (inappropriate) items, so I took your post seriously, because you could've been right!

You point out good issues about the epoxy processes.

I'll try to contact some of the people who had first-hand knowledge of the carbon fiber design, and the epoxy processes.

For me, I get the sense that the most likely point of failure was in the carbon fiber, in the area where the carbon fiber cylinder end of the pressure hull was epoxied in the valley of a Titanium interface caps.
 
I apologize for taking your comment seriously when I failed to understand you were making fun.

Stockton Rush used more than one, off-the-shelf (inappropriate) items, so I took your post seriously, because you could've been right!

You point out good issues about the epoxy processes.

I'll try to contact some of the people who had first-hand knowledge of the carbon fiber design, and the epoxy processes.

For me, I get the sense that the most likely point of failure was in the carbon fiber, in the area where the carbon fiber cylinder end of the pressure hull was epoxied in the valley of a Titanium interface caps.

No problem, sadly that it was even potentially possible is what makes the joke work and it is just absolutely disgusting that there was even just that potential.

I’m with you there, hadn’t thought about that interface area before and just considered the shell itself as the weak point of failure. Once you brought it up, it sounded most likely to me.
 
Saw a pic of the intact titanium front cone today, window missing.

Well that is significant. Of course the window could have blown outwards when the water rushed in on implosion, but if that window blew inwards, it might indicate a failure of the titanium pressure hull, not the carbon fibre.
 
Here's some information from the CompositesWorld link that I posted earlier in the thread:

The biggest challenge, Spencer reports, was developing a manufacturable design that “would produce a consistent part with no wrinkles, voids or delaminations.” And without use of an autoclave. Spencer opted for a layup strategy that combines alternating placement of prepreg carbon fiber/epoxy unidirectional fabrics in the axial direction, with wet winding of carbon fiber/epoxy in the hoop direction, for a total of 480 plies. The carbon fiber is standard-modulus Grafil 37-800 (30K tow), supplied by Mitsubishi Chemical Carbon Fiber & Composites Inc. (Irvine, CA, US). Prepreg was supplied by Irvine-based Newport Composites, now part of Mitsubishi Chemical Carbon Fiber & Composites Inc. The wet-winding epoxy is Epon Resin 682 from Hexion Inc. (Columbus, OH, US). The curing agent is Lindride LS-81K frLindau Chemicals Inc.cals (Columbia, SC, US).


....

After layup and winding was complete, the cylinder was bagged with cellowrap and then cured in an oven at 137°C for 7 days. There was no postcure. Spencer says initial assessment of the cured cylinder shows that it has porosity of <1%. As CW went to press, the cylinder was being prepared for machining to cut it to length, square up the ends and bond it to the titanium end caps.

That alone was so disturbing to read the first time, that I was kind of glad that the article didn't get into how the "two titanium interface caps" were "bonded to each open end of the hull."

...and then there was this:


“They basically said, ‘This is the pressure we have to meet, this is the factor of safety, this is the basic envelope. Go design and build it,’” Spencer reports. And he was given six weeks in which to do it.



https://www.compositesworld.com/art...#carouselae323cca-6ad8-4de8-9b66-75a9cb083bbf


Hi Shepherd, thank you for posting this, I missed it. That's a good read.

As The Man already pointed out, the 'Titan' carbon fiber pressure hull wasn't put in an autoclave. An autoclave could've helped remove air bubbles.

But even if the CF cylinder hull was put in an autoclave, there are other major problems.

PROBLEM OF DISSIMILAR MATERIALS; CARBON FIBER AND EPOXIES

According to the CW article, prepreg carbon fiber/epoxy unidirectional fabrics in the axial direction, was used with alternating wet winding of carbon fiber/epoxy in the hoop direction. Why is that a problem? This needs to be verified as I don't see that the prepreg used isn't specifically mentioned, so it's quite plausible it uses different carbon fiber, and different epoxy resins, from the wet-winding carbon fiber/epoxy/curing agent.

This means that the different materials will shrink and expand at different rates. That can lead to delamination and cracks in the carbon fiber/epoxy.

PROBLEM: CUTTING THE CYLINDER EXPOSES BARE FIBER

The CW article said, "the cylinder was being prepared for machining to cut it to length, square up the ends..." and the cylinder was to be bonded to the titanium end caps.

Cutting the carbon fiber/epoxy cylinder would expose bare, carbon fibers. The machining would likely cause a situation in which air can get into the ends of the cylinder because of tiny cracks in the CF/epoxy, and in-between the 'hairs' of the carbon fiber. If the machined cut ends, and any work done to "square up the ends" didn't fully encapsulate the carbon fibers without air bubbles or pockets...the cut ends would likely make air bubbles.

It appears different carbon fiber was used, likely different epoxies, and different layup methods that likely didn't form a cohesive whole. I don't recall seeing alternating placement or layers of prepreg with the hoop direction wet windings of carbon fiber.

The CW article doesn't doesn't say if the ends of the carbon fiber cylinder fully encapsulated the cut & exposed carbon fibers. I don't know if the "square up the ends" included using sandpaper on the carbon fiber. If so, that was likely a no-no. You need to stop air bubbles or pockets from happening.

The ends of the carbon fiber/epoxy cylinder appear to be HIGHLY-PROBLEMATIC as to how it was cut and machined, then epoxied into the titanium (interface) end caps. The carbon fiber/epoxy cylinder ends could have deformed under pressure so as to come into contact with 'sharp corners' of the titanium (interface) end caps? I don't know. So many different materials, so many chances for air bubbles. Different materials/methods means delamination, leading to cracking.

And it's quite possible that air bubbles were likely whipped into the epoxy that was used to bond the carbon fiber/epoxy cylinder to the titanium (interface) end caps. Air bubbles are problematic as the materials cycle with pressure and temperature, as to potentially cause failure.

Again, I don't know what caused 'Titan's' catastrophic implosion, but the use of different materials and construction methods used in the joinery areas....really, really, really, cry out.
 
I thought it was interesting in that long interview he did he claimed he would have enough warning of any problems, with the window it would be crazing, with the hull, squeaks and pinging sounds. It wasn't enough, obviously. They say he had dropped the weights and was on the way up when the implosion happened, so he seems to have had just a little warning.

Actually, without studying the actual position and all in detail (nor being qualified), I'd say we don't know for sure.

It turns out that the counter-weights were tied with something that slowly dissolves in salt water, so after a number of hours (I don't remember the exact number) the weights would drop on their own, even if the crew is dead or the rest of the system is borked. Sort of a cheap safety feature. So my (again, unqualified) take is that:

1. There's also the possibility that, given it was found after days, of course they would no longer be tied.

2. There is also the possibility that depth-charge-like event just threw them or the bars they were attached to off. We're talking just some pipes tied with some intentionally flimsy sorta-rope that was already half-way through dissolving by the time it happened. When the whole thing goes bang dramatically enough, I don't expect that cord to be the part that survives it intact.

3. That also tells me that the whole dramatic scenario where they thought they're alive and banging on the hull should have been known to be bogus after the first day. By then the sub should have popped up on its own, just by virtue of that cord dissolving.
 
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Jesus Christ. I occasionally build surfboards with epoxy resin and even an occasional carbon fiber rail strip, and I have a cleaner and more quality controlled working area than these yo yos. And I'm normally drinking more than is prudent.
 
The 19 year old is the one part of all this that feels unapologetically actually tragic and I do feel genuinely sorry for him with no reservations.

I started thinking the same, but after some more reading, it turns out that Oceangate were lying little pieces of $#!&.

They still claimed even on their site that the submersible was developed in cooperation with experts from NASA, Boeing, and the University of Washington. All three denied it. At least Ocean Gate had a Space Act Agreement which meant the COULD work for NASA, but apparently never actually did. Like, at all.

They also claimed they had bought the carbon fibre from Boeing (the implication being that it at least passed the grade for those) but that was also a complete lie.

Etc.

So while I do still think the others should have had other warning signs, it also turns out they were being actively told enough comforting lies to make it a not entirely informed decision to go on it.
 
[...snipped for brevity]

Again, I don't know what caused 'Titan's' catastrophic implosion, but the use of different materials and construction methods used in the joinery areas....really, really, really, cry out.

As Shepherd noted, this is getting quite disturbing and disgusting for me. It’s a dang composite pressure hull and the first pressure it sees, above atmospheric, is in service after cured?!?!. I was let go from one position when I refused to complete the automation of a piece of production equipment without just basic safeguards for the operator. Wouldn’t even let me put an EMO cut off within reach of the operator. Kudos to the dude that left the company and tried to sound some warnings.

In Shepherd’s linked article where I read wrinkles were a concern, that blew my mind. You do this **** right and it shouldn’t be. As a pressure hull it’s goanna get squoze together and tend to spring back later. Do some freak’n squeezing in the autoclave while curing and not only bleed out gasses but reduce that spring back potential of the laminations as the composite **** is already compacted in that curing process. I'm dumfounded, knowing the application, as to how this **** was let out the door by the CF shell manufacturer or whatever chumps were in charge of in house manufacturing.
 
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What I find fascinating is that private submarine/submersible manufactory seems to have been one of the few Libertarian success stories - right up until Rush:

the few players (like Cameron) seems to have exchanged knowhow and managed to built and operate a number of machines at various depths with not a single casualty in over a decade.

They even tried to police their territory, with open letters to warn people about the risk of the Titan construction and operation.
 

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