Three Professors of Psychiatry call for "neuropsychiatric evaluation"

[WilliamSeger]

It is silly when you put some thought into the fact that the average person on the internet is not qualified to make those types of observations.

Nonsense; I'm not asking him for a clinical diagnosis. The average person on the internet can observe DJT's behavior and decide if they think it's normal and acceptable -- in fact, that's pretty unavoidable, I should think -- and that was my question.

 

[fuelair]

What in the world are you on about? In a thread about psychiatrists asking Obama to intervene due to allegations of Trump's mental health, I made a comment about psychiatrists asking Obama to intervene due to allegations of Trump's mental health.

Demanding an opinion from me on the man's diagnosis appears aggressively unproductive.

This is a perfectly valid point, I have , for example, no opinion of the diagnosis as to the doctor's findings/assumptions. My only opinion is it is good for the doctor/s to research/evaluate same and my opinion is he (trump) belongs in an institution that has no connection with power over anything/anyone except it's inmates..

 

[tyr_13]

Really? You're not defending the sending of a letter?

Funny thing, though: that's precisely what I was attacking. Note Loss Leader's post.



So I make fun of them for writing to Obama, you try to defend them for something completely different, while conceding the very point I was actually making. Why on earth would you do that? Are you not paying any attention? Are you really so desperate to prove me wrong that you'll attack me even when you agree with me?

That's just sad. No, I lie: it's also funny. Not quite Hindenburg level, but still.

It doesn't matter if I agree with your overall point if you use fallacy to make it. It's not exactly out of character for me to point out these issues, especially when you keep using the same attack fallaciously.

Do you just use skepticism and critical thinking as a bludgeon to attack opponents and rationalize your positions, or do you use it to inform and refine those positions in the first place? Their sending the letter is foolish on it's own merits, not because they're sad Trump will be president.

Also, wait, you agree with them that Trump displays all the traits of this disorder?

 

[Ziggurat]

This is a perfectly valid point, I have , for example, no opinion of the diagnosis as to the doctor's findings/assumptions. My only opinion is it is good for the doctor/s to research/evaluate same and my opinion is he (trump) belongs in an institution that has no connection with power over anything/anyone except it's inmates..

You have no opinion of the diagnosis. But you have your own diagnosis.

 

[Ziggurat]

It doesn't matter if I agree with your overall point if you use fallacy to make it.

You didn't even know what my point was, so how can you even evaluate whether I used a fallacy to support it?

Also, wait, you agree with them that Trump displays all the traits of this disorder?

I haven't weighed in on that, nor do I see a need to since 1) I'm not a trained psychologist, and 2) even trained psychologists can't make meaningful diagnoses like this. I know you're desperate to get me to commit to some position, but news flash: unlike you, I don't feel the need to have an opinion about everything.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Nonsense; I'm not asking him for a clinical diagnosis. The average person on the internet can observe DJT's behavior and decide if they think it's normal and acceptable -- in fact, that's pretty unavoidable, I should think -- and that was my question.

But that wasn't the point of the post of lost sleep as you responded to by asking them if they agreed that Trump displayed the signs of narcissistic personality disorder.

 

[Oystein]

It depends on the job. There's no question how bad that is going to be as POTUS. ...

I can prove you wrong by giving one refuting example:

How bad is that really going to be as POTUS?

See? there is a question

What I kind of expect is some evidence that people with NPD are typically dysfunctional in leadership positions with great responsibility to the detriment of their organization.
See, I am not an expert on NPD, and I do not know how the symptoms actually play out in the work place.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I can prove you wrong by giving one refuting example:

How bad is that really going to be as POTUS?

See? there is a question

What I kind of expect is some evidence that people with NPD are typically dysfunctional in leadership positions with great responsibility to the detriment of their organization.
See, I am not an expert on NPD, and I do not know how the symptoms actually play out in the work place.

See: Korea, North.

 

[WilliamSeger]

But that wasn't the point of the post of lost sleep as you responded to by asking them if they agreed that Trump displayed the signs of narcissistic personality disorder.

Nonsense, I asked them if they denied the behavior described in the letter -- which was NOT a clinical diagnosis, but a recommendation that one was needed -- or if they thought that behavior was perfectly normal and acceptable. If you're suggesting that only a clinical psychiatrist can make that determination after of hours of interviews, then I'll take that as your rationalization for ignoring it.

 

[tyr_13]

You didn't even know what my point was, so how can you even evaluate whether I used a fallacy to support it?

Because, again, it doesn't actually matter. If you point was they were wrong to send the letter to Obama, in part because they did so out of being liberals who are in grief, or your point was they were wrong to say Trump displays these traits, in part because they did so out of being liberals who are in grief, the fallacy is the same. You're still bolstering criticism of them based on a personal trait you've made up for them, and not the argument they're making.

I haven't weighed in on that, nor do I see a need to since 1) I'm not a trained psychologist, and 2) even trained psychologists can't make meaningful diagnoses like this. I know you're desperate to get me to commit to some position, but news flash: unlike you, I don't feel the need to have an opinion about everything.

Odin's eye, you have GOT to be kidding me! You're not a trained psychologist so you won't weigh in on that? Here we actually are discussing presented evidence of someone being a narcissist, but that's not enough to have an opinion, but if someone only claims and promises evidence, then witholds it, that's worthy of an opinion? You're going for a Poe right? There is no way you could have become more hypocritical on diagnosing narcissism and standards of evidence since that thread. I don't believe it.

I didn't ask you to make a diagnoses. Saying someone has displayed these traits isn't diagnosing them with the disorder. As I already said, it would take an in person evaluation to tell if he is one, or only plays one on TV. That doesn't mean any opinion on him displaying these things is uncalled for.

It's rather 'sad, ok' that having an opinion in and of itself is something to be attacked. I don't have an opinion on everything, and would love to see you try to prove it.

 

[Oystein]

I should think it would depend on the job, and whether or not NPD interferes with properly doing the job. Here, we're talking about a situation where every issue that the most powerful man in the world has to deal with has to first get around or through his highly bloated but extremely fragile ego, his petty vindictiveness, his desperate need to be recognized as "the man," his manipulative dishonesty, his lack of empathy, ... the list goes on.

If Trump's parents had sent him to a therapist when he started acting out instead of military school, there's a good chance it would have helped some. But a 70-year-old man who has spent his entire life in a bubble... it would be a complete waste of time.

But you are not a psychologist, and perhaps you haven't done some systematic reading on the effects of NPD in the work place?

Don't get me wrong - Trump's personality and behaviour have me as uneasy as you. I can imagine as well as you that NPD would affect his job performance negatively to the detriment of the nation and the world.

However, the point I wanted to make initially is this: Suppose he was indeed diagnosed with NPD, is that sufficient legally to keep him out of his job? Can employees be layed off or put on leave when diagnosed with NPD? Can elected public officials legally be kept out of their offices when diagnosed with NPD?

The average person on the internet can observe DJT's behavior and decide if they think it's normal and acceptable -- in fact, that's pretty unavoidable, I should think -- and that was my question.

Trump's behaviour has been observed by the average and not-so-average Americans, and a qualified (as stipulated by the Constitution) majority of the US's voters obviously found his behaviour acceptable. Should the three psychology professors perhaps ask Obama to also have 47% of the electorate mentally checked?

 

[Oystein]

See: Korea, North.

Ok. So now we have a count of 1 towards a robust, statistically significant survey

 

[WilliamSeger]

However, the point I wanted to make initially is this: Suppose he was indeed diagnosed with NPD, is that sufficient legally to keep him out of his job? Can employees be layed off or put on leave when diagnosed with NPD? Can elected public officials legally be kept out of their offices when diagnosed with NPD?

I can only answer that last one for the specific case of the presidency: Section 4 of the 25th Amendment provides a method for the VP and Cabinet to decide that the president is incapacitated or otherwise incapable of discharging his duties, and doesn't detail the requirements for that decision.

Trump's behaviour has been observed by the average and not-so-average Americans, and a qualified (as stipulated by the Constitution) majority of the US's voters obviously found his behaviour acceptable.

Exactly right, and the intent of my question was to try to get a handle on how the hell that was possible.

 

[Ziggurat]

Odin's eye, you have GOT to be kidding me! You're not a trained psychologist so you won't weigh in on that?

I've long since made clear that I was never speaking in a clinical sense. If you want to know if I think Trump is a narcissist in a NON-clinical sense, well, I've already said so in that very thread. In fact, you even knew that I said so, because you acknowledged that I said so in that very thread. So to try to paint this as some sort of hypocrisy on my part is, well, a lie on your part. Which makes you a liar.

But this thread is about the clinical sense of the term. So my refusal to weigh in on a clinical matter is in no way contradictory.

It's rather 'sad, ok' that having an opinion in and of itself is something to be attacked.

You're attacking me for NOT having an opinion, and you're surprised that you're getting pushback?

What the hell is wrong with you?

 

[Noztradamus]

It's the "apparent inability to distinguish between fantasy and reality" that has always bothered me the most, particularly since it seems to be highly contagious. Viral, even.

Epidemic in the American left now.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You have no opinion of the diagnosis. But you have your own diagnosis.

There you go again. You cherry picked half of fuelair's quote and then built your straw man.

What fuelair said was,

This is a perfectly valid point, I have , for example, no opinion of the diagnosis as to the doctor's findings/assumptions.

That is key to the sentence and you couldn't have battled your straw man without leaving that key point out.

He went on to say,

My only opinion is it is good for the doctor/s to research/evaluate same

Also pertinent to the discussion.

Then fuelair gave his own opinion:

and my opinion is he (trump) belongs in an institution that has no connection with power over anything/anyone except it's inmates..

An opinion which many people, lay person and professional, also hold.

 

[WilliamSeger]

Epidemic in the American left now.

Nope, it's moral relativism on the old left, and factual relativism on the new right, but thanks for proving my point.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I can prove you wrong by giving one refuting example:

How bad is that really going to be as POTUS?

See? there is a question

What I kind of expect is some evidence that people with NPD are typically dysfunctional in leadership positions with great responsibility to the detriment of their organization.
See, I am not an expert on NPD, and I do not know how the symptoms actually play out in the work place.

What exactly are you proving?

All you are saying is you can't put 2 & 2 together. I gave specific examples where Trump's pathologic personality disorder is going to be like a bull in a china shop. That you can't imagine it or think forward: what will X do in the realm of diplomatic relations, is your failure to imagine.

Are you expecting a double blind study of POTUSes with and without pathologic narcissism? A study of other world leaders?

Could be Stalin or Hitler or Lenin or Kim Jong Un had/have such personality disorders. I'm willing to bet there's a good chance they did/do. Not to Godwin the thread, the circumstances are different and you can't compare outcomes with such different circumstances.

What I find bizarre are people who keep thinking Trump's personality is nothing more eccentric than some top CEO might have. It's nothing close to that.

Wait and see. There's not a lot we can do about heading off the diplomatic disasters to come. Best we can do is anticipate them and be as prepared as possible.

 

[WilliamSeger]

Ok. So now we have a count of 1 towards a robust, statistically significant survey

One close match with Trump: Burlusconi in Italy.

ETA: There are a few notable cases in history...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

According to Wiki: List of mentally ill modern era world leaders they include the following as having narcissistic personality disorders:

Pol Pot
Stalin
Hermann Göring
Heinrich Himmler
Hitler
Napoleon


Sounds about right.