Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[Cleon]

Yes, this is true. But on the other hand, many modern people also simply can't comprehent just how divisive religious practice was back then, and by extension, how serious the Founding Fathers were about keeping religion out of American government.

Have you heard of the Thirty Years' War? Only about a century before the American revolution, people were kiling each other and laying entire countries all over Europe as a result of religious schisms, mostly between Catholics and Protestants. At the time of the American revolution, Jews were not permitted to attend university or stand for Parliament -- the first Jew permitted to stand for Parliament did so in 1858, nearly a hundred years after the American Revolution.

Jews and "dissenters" were routinely forced to attend Divine Services according to the Church of England, under penalty of flogging or death-by-hanging until well into the mid-1800s. "Dissenters" in this case includes groups such as Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians -- probably half the ship's company in many cases.

The Founding Fathers were well aware of such abuses and were very explicit -- the evidence is "simply staring [you] in the face" -- that although the American people might be religious, the American government was not to be.



Perhaps. But I think a bigger part is the fact that religious people have no compunction about telling lies in the interests of a greater "Truth" that turns out to be an utter falsehood. Such as searching for WMD that turn out to be faerie gold, or making up citations about Jefferson in an effort to establish a theocracy atop the ashes of the freedoms that Jefferson and his ilk fought a war to establish.

Nominated. Beautifully said, although I fear it will fall upon deaf ears. Er, eyes. Blind eyes? Uh...DOC will ignore it.

 

[DOC]

Yes, this is true. But on the other hand, many modern people also simply can't comprehent just how divisive religious practice was back then, and by extension, how serious the Founding Fathers were about keeping religion out of American government.Have you heard of the Thirty Years' War? Only about a century before the American revolution, people were kiling each other and laying waste to entire countries all over Europe as a result of religious schisms, mostly between Catholics and Protestants. At the time of the American revolution, Jews were not permitted to attend university or stand for Parliament -- the first Jew permitted to stand for Parliament did so in 1858, nearly a hundred years after the American Revolution.

Jews and "dissenters" were routinely forced to attend Divine Services according to the Church of England, under penalty of flogging or death-by-hanging until well into the mid-1800s. "Dissenters" in this case includes groups such as Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians -- probably half the ship's company in many cases.

The Founding Fathers were well aware of such abuses and were very explicit -- the evidence is "simply staring [you] in the face" -- that although the American people might be religious, the American government was not to be.



Perhaps. But I think a bigger part is the fact that religious people have no compunction about telling lies in the interests of a greater "Truth" that turns out to be an utter falsehood. Such as searching for WMD that turn out to be faerie gold, or making up citations about Jefferson in an effort to establish a theocracy atop the ashes of the freedoms that Jefferson and his ilk fought a war to establish.

drkitten quote: "Yes, this is true. But on the other hand, many modern people also simply can't comprehent just how divisive religious practice was back then, and by extension, how serious the Founding Fathers were about keeping religion out of American government."
_____

I think you have it partially right, but it should be the other way around. The Founding Fathers goal was to keep the government out of religion, not religion out of the government.

If you look at the following excerpt of Jefferson's famous letter to the Danbury Baptists, it only talks about what the government can't do "not" what the Church or religion can't do.

Excerpt from letter:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for is faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem."

Restrictions on government;
1 legislative powers of government reach actions only.
2 legislative powers of government do not reach opinions.
3 legislature should make not make law respecting...
4 legislature should not prohibit free exercise of religion

Restrictions on Religion:
0

Why did Jefferson go to church services in a Congressional building 2 days after he wrote the letter, if he was so concerned about keeping religion out of government.

read post #61 for a more in depth discussion of the letter.

 

[drkitten]

drkitten quote: "Yes, this is true. But on the other hand, many modern people also simply can't comprehent just how divisive religious practice was back then, and by extension, how serious the Founding Fathers were about keeping religion out of American government."
_____

I think you have it partially right, but it should be the other way around. The Founding Fathers goal was to keep the government out of religion, not religion out of the government.

Not at all. That's the whole point of having two separate clauses -- the "establishment" and the "free exercise" clause.

If you look at the following excerpt of Jefferson's famous letter to the Danbury Baptists, it only talks about what the government can't do "not" what the Church or religion can't do.

Yawn. Are you asking me to deconstruct yet another falsified quotation? Given your track record, can you demonstrate that this quotation actually happened?

Why did Jefferson go to church services in a Congressional building 2 days after he wrote the letter,

I see no reason to believe that he did so. You have lied before about Jefferson's actions -- why should I believe this one?

But even if he did, ....

if he was so concerned about keeping religion out of government.

Jefferson's actions as a private person are different from Jefferson's actions as a member of the government. Jefferson as a private person is welcome to freely exercise his religion in any way that he wants. Jefferson, as an agent of the State, cannot take actions to establish or to limit the free practice of religion.

read post #61 for a more in depth discussion of the letter.

Yes, we've been over that. Kennedy is a liar, a cheat, a swindler, a confidence man, and a thoroughly unreliable source. I'm not sure he could tell the truth if he wanted to. His interpretation, which you have bought hook line and sinker, is utterly without merit and completely baseless.

As long as we're citing unreliable sources, are you familiar with Jefferson's letter of April 1, 1831 to Benjamin Franklin? He said "James Kennedy is a liar, a cheat, a swindler, a confidence man, and a thoroughly unreliable source. Nothing that he attributes to me -- neither my actions, my words, nor my thoughts -- should be treated as being accurate in any way without independent confirmation, and anyone who believes anything he says or writes is a witless fool."

 

[DOC]

Not at all. That's the whole point of having two separate clauses -- the "establishment" and the "free exercise" clause.




Yawn. Are you asking me to deconstruct yet another falsified quotation? Given your track record, can you demonstrate that this quotation actually happened?



I see no reason to believe that he did so. You have lied before about Jefferson's actions -- why should I believe this one?

But even if he did, ....



Jefferson's actions as a private person are different from Jefferson's actions as a member of the government. Jefferson as a private person is welcome to freely exercise his religion in any way that he wants. Jefferson, as an agent of the State, cannot take actions to establish or to limit the free practice of religion.



Yes, we've been over that. Kennedy is a liar, a cheat, a swindler, a confidence man, and a thoroughly unreliable source. I'm not sure he could tell the truth if he wanted to. His interpretation, which you have bought hook line and sinker, is utterly without merit and completely baseless.

As long as we're citing unreliable sources, are you familiar with Jefferson's letter of April 1, 1831 to Benjamin Franklin? He said "James Kennedy is a liar, a cheat, a swindler, a confidence man, and a thoroughly unreliable source. Nothing that he attributes to me -- neither my actions, my words, nor my thoughts -- should be treated as being accurate in any way without independent confirmation, and anyone who believes anything he says or writes is a witless fool."

Your rationality seems to be if a person informs you of 50 facts that are accurate and one fact that is not accurate, they are a liar, and nothing that person says in the future should be believed. I guess you have the right to your beliefs.

Also, I noticed that when people make derogatory comments in here they often talk in generalities and rarely give specifics. For example, you said I've lied before about Jefferson's actions but didn't give any example. I think in the future people should give examples of something. It will have more impact and believability.

 

[drkitten]

Your rationality seems to be if a person informs you of 50 facts that are accurate and one fact that is not accurate, they are a liar, and nothing that person says in the future should be believed.

Give me fifty accurate facts and we'll talk. Heck, give me five. I haven't yet seen an "accurate" fact from you that supports your position.

Also, I noticed that when people make derogatory comments in here they often talk in generalities and rarely give specifics. For example, you said I've lied before about Jefferson's actions but didn't give any example.

Yep. The examples are upthread if you need them.

For example, in post 132 you said

Jefferson's period of living in France where his wife and daughter died during all the turmoil and revolution that was going on in the country really did a number on him. There was no support system around for him (like a personal pastor) or a spirit filled chuch and it really tested his faith... My personal belief is that if Jefferson didn't have such a strong knowledge of the Bible he could have very easily killed himself during this period in his life.

Although you attribute this statement to Kennedy, you are also explicitly placing yourself in agreement with him, especially in the final sentence. Unfortunately, as was pointed out, his wife did not die while he was living in France.

Similarly, you said [post 141] that

his mother and best friend also died while he was there

Unfortunately, it is easily demonstrable that his mother died nine years before.

Similarly, you presented a list of actions [post 145] that Jefferson had taken "during his presidency," including establishing military chaplains, legislative chaplains, a Christian-based national motto, and so forth, many/most of which were easily proven wrong simply by noting the discrepancy in dates.

You attributed a quotation to Jefferson [post 225] that has been directly disputed by the Monticello library.

And so forth.

More to the point, when presented with direct evidence of the factual errors (and by extension, with direct evidence of Kennedy's unreliability as a historical source), you persist in citing him. In other words, you're deliberately and knowingly making statements that have been proven to you to be false.

There's a word for that. And it's not a pleasant one.

If you want more evidence about how you have "lied before about Jefferson's actions," you can read the thread yourself. I think four examples should suffice for this purpose.

 

[DOC]

Could you cite an actual source for the rotunda activities?

As for the "wall" metaphor, what is ambiguous about this quote:



Bolding mine.

Quote:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

Bolding mine.
_________

The metaphor is only partially ambiguous when existing by itself, but when you add all the restrictions to the legislature (and none to the church) that Jefferson did in the previous sentences, it becomes quite ambiguous. See post #302 for the restrictions to the government.

As for the Rotunda activities, there are several sources in the following article.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resource...ResourceID=123

 

[Tanstaafl]

Sorry DOC, there's not a single word in that quote supporting your church/state position.

 

[DOC]

Sorry DOC, there's not a single word in that quote supporting your church/state position.

What quote are you talking about and what is your interpretation of my church/state position. Specificity would be appreciated in all posts directed at me.

 

[Tanstaafl]

Umm, what you quoted right above my post:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

Your interpretation being that it's okay for the church to meddle in the government, but not for the government to meddle in the church. At least I think that's what you're trying to say, you are of course free to clarify.

 

[DOC]

A quick thanks to the contributors in this thread.

I originally had a vague idea of what Jefferson believed in, but didn't know any great detail. But thanks to this thread I now know that there is no evidence he was a Christian in the sense it was used in his day or indeed a Christian as recognised by any major denomination today.

Fascinating stuff.

Well thank you...
__

Actually, at one time Jefferson was the equivalent of an elder in his Unitarian Church. Although today, the Unitarian church is more liberal and less biblically based than it was back then.

 

[drkitten]

Actually, at one time Jefferson was the equivalent of an elder in his Unitarian Church.

Are you telling lies again?

Was this "one time" before or after he was living in France with his wife -- or establishing the chaplain's corps of the United States Army?

Why should we believe this statement to be any more accurate than any of your other misrepresentations about Jefferson?

 

[Cleon]

Well thank you...
__

Actually, at one time Jefferson was the equivalent of an elder in his Unitarian Church. Although today, the Unitarian church is more liberal and less biblically based than it was back then.

Wow. You're not even pretending to have a clue anymore, are you?

 

[DOC]

Are you telling lies again?

Was this "one time" before or after he was living in France with his wife -- or establishing the chaplain's corps of the United States Army?

Why should we believe this statement to be any more accurate than any of your other misrepresentations about Jefferson?

I've made 72 posts in this forum. If the worst you can do to me is to say Jefferson's wife didn't live with him in France and the Chaplain's corp was initiated by the father of our country (Washington) and not Jefferson -- than I consider that a compliment.

 

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC
Well thank you...
__

Actually, at one time Jefferson was the equivalent of an elder in his Unitarian Church. Although today, the Unitarian church is more liberal and less biblically based than it was back then.

Wow. You're not even pretending to have a clue anymore, are you?

Mr Cleon, In order to make a comment like that you must of found a different answer. You should of shared it with us, and than I wouldn't of had to look it up. Actually according to the following website, Jefferson was a vestry in the Anglican Church which is the equivalent of a elder in the Presbyterian Church.

http://www.truthpizza.org/post/nitardy7.htm

The Website said they got the facts from Dr. James Kennedy's book " What if America was a Christian Nation again"

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Well thank you...
__

OK, I'm confused. So, DOC, you are actually just posing as a Christian to lay bare the fact that Jefferson really wasn't one (a Christian) in any traditional sense? It's a brilliant piece of parody if that was your intent. Otherwise, I think Cleon might have a point.........

 

[DOC]

God, America, And The Bible

According to the author of the listed website the following info is from Dr. James Kennedy's book, " What if America was a Christian Nation Again"


http://www.truthpizza.org/post/nitardy7.htm


"Below I have listed 19 of 25 items that show the Bible (Theism) and God were a basic foundation of our country.

1. The Declaration of Independence mentions God four times.
2. The Articles of Confederation mention God.
3. The Constitution is explicitly signed, "in the year of our lord". Now in our schools BC has been changed to BCE.
4. The treaty of Paris in 1783, negotiated by Ben Franklin, John Adams, and John Jay, acknowledged the Trinity as it made official our separation from Great Britain. It began "In the name of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity."
5. Chaplains have been on the public payroll from the very beginning.
6. The Constitutions of all 50 states mention God in one way or another.
7. The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.
8. Our national anthem mentions God.
9. Every president has been sworn in on the Bible.
10. Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.
11. Virtually every president has called for a national days of prayer, of fasting, of thanksgiving. This included James Madison, Abraham Lincoln and Ronald Reagan.
12. Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.
13. Oaths in the courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.
14. The Christmas and thanksgiving holidays are Christian holidays.
15. God is mentioned all over Washington, D.C., on its monuments and buildings.
16. The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and of the ten commandments. A total of twenty depictions.
17. Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust".
18. The freedom Shrine exhibits tell the story of American liberty, and God is mentioned in many if not most of these documents on public display.
19. The Bible was the primary textbook in our schools. Children learned their ABC's using Biblical words.

Newsweek said some years ago, "Historians are now coming to realize that the Bible , even more than the Constitution, founded the nation of America."

 

[Cleon]

I've made 72 posts in this forum. If the worst you can do to me is to say Jefferson's wife didn't live with him in France and the Chaplain's corp was initiated by the father of our country (Washington) and not Jefferson -- than I consider that a compliment.

It's far from the worst, it's just the only one you will acknowledge. Your repetition of lies, myths, and outright bizarre claims have been debunked throughout this thread.

First you say:

Actually, at one time Jefferson was the equivalent of an elder in his Unitarian Church. Although today, the Unitarian church is more liberal and less biblically based than it was back then.

And then you say...

Mr Cleon, In order to make a comment like that you must of found a different answer. You should of shared it with us, and than I wouldn't of had to look it up. Actually according to the following website, Jefferson was a vestry in the Anglican Church which is the equivalent of a elder in the Presbyterian Church.

Do you see the contradiction in your own garbage, here?

 

[drkitten]

According to the author of the listed website the following info is from Dr. James Kennedy's book, " What if America was a Christian Nation Again"

And we already know that James Kennedy is not a reliable source in any way.

Wny do you keep citing him?

 

[Garrette]

Oh my gars and starters. Is this really what you consider evidence?

According to the author of the listed website the following info is from Dr. James Kennedy's book, " What if America was a Christian Nation Again"

Besides the fact, as has been pointed out, Kennedy is completely unreliable, and you refuse to acknowledge this, I'll touch on a few of the points listed:

http://www.truthpizza.org/post/nitardy7.htm


"Below I have listed 19 of 25 items that show the Bible (Theism) and God were a basic foundation of our country.

The Declaration of Independence mentions God four times.

No, it does not.

It mentions "God" one time and one time only. It does so in the phrase "nature and nature's God" which is a very deistic turn of phrase and not a christian one.

It also mentions "their Creator", "the Supreme Judge" and "Divine Providence." If you or Kennedy want to argue that these terms are equivalent not only to "God" but to a "Christian God" and further to an indication that the US is founded on the bible, you will need to provide a much more comprehensive argument.

The Articles of Confederation mention God.

No, it does not.

It uses the phrase "Great Governor of the World." You'll need much more of an argument to demonstrate this means an establishment of christian principles, which, very much to the point, the Articles of Confederation do not address in the slightest. The Articles concern themselves solely with the secular governance of the colonies. That's it.

The Constitution is explicitly signed, "in the year of our lord". Now in our schools BC has been changed to BCE.

You have got to be kidding. The fact that someone uses the widely accepted conventional dating method is an indication of Christian foundations? If you truly believe this, you are a lost cause.

The treaty of Paris in 1783, negotiated by Ben Franklin, John Adams, and John Jay, acknowledged the Trinity as it made official our separation from Great Britain. It began "In the name of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity."

Excellent! You are Anglican, I take it. That phrase, and the long, flowery phrase that follows it is in reference to King George III, "defender of the faith." That's "Anglican" faith.

So your argument is that the United States is an Anglican nation.

Our national anthem mentions God.

Yes. In the fourth, never sung, verse. Do you know when it became the national anthem?

Hint: It was 1931.


I'll leave the rest of the list to others.

Newsweek said some years ago, "Historians are now coming to realize that the Bible , even more than the Constitution, founded the nation of America."

Ah, yes. Newsweek. That pillar of rational inquiry and unbiased reporting. Tell me, please, what you think of Newsweek's stance on the Michael Newdow lawsuits?

 

[drkitten]

Excellent! You are Anglican, I take it. That phrase, and the long, flowery phrase that follows it is in reference to King George III, "defender of the faith." That's "Anglican" faith.

So your argument is that the United States is an Anglican nation.

Er, no. It's actually even sillier. Henry VIII was granted the title "Defender of the Faith" by some pope or other for his services to Catholicism, some years before he engineered the huge split with Rome. So the "Faith" that Henry and all his descendants -- including George "Speaker-to-Trees" and Betty Windsor -- is actually Roman Catholicism.

Queen Vicky would have been amused. If she had been amused, that is.

So DOC is actually arguing that the United States -- and the United Kingdom, and England -- are actually Catholic nations, despite the fact that Anglicanism is the official Established state religion....