The VFF Test is On!

[derekcbart]

Um--you mean implying not inferring, I think.

At any rate, what I've been saying is that the $24K was never on the line because the IIG had not reached an agreement on a final test protocol with Anita, and from what I heard, it sounded as if such an agreement was extremely unlikely.

You could clear this up by posting the final protocol that Anita and the IIG had agreed upon.

Hello.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but this comment, and other similar comments of yours, present the impression that you have never been involved in the actual testing of an applicant for a paranormal challenge. What you are asking for is not done by the JREF, the IIG, or any other organization that has a paranormal challenge that I am aware of.

I know first-hand that the JREF does not do this because the IIG has been involved in the preliminary testing of U.S. West Coast applicants for the past several years and this has never come up in any of our discussions with Alison, Jeff, Kramer, or Randi himself.

You are obviously very passionate about protocol design, and the IIG took several of your comments to heart when designing the Anita Ikonen protocol, but unless you have been involved in the actual testing of an applicant for the JREF MDC I think it would be better for you to not say how they operate.

Thank you.

-Derek

 

[sleepy_lioness]

Not read that far yet, still am. Was not aware that it was that painful a process as have been away for a few months, but I still would say yes, she at least tried. When certain litigious mediumistic/psychic claimants do that I'll revise my opinion, but VFF at least tried.
<snip>

On the 'litigious' point, you may not be aware that since the test she has threatened at least two people with lawsuits.

 

[alleracsum]

Honestly, I wish I had waited until IIG had released their full report. The information about trial two would be included, along with the fact that Anita knew after the test. It would have wrapped things up in a much neater fashion and would have been less dramatic. Not to mention that it's their story to tell, not mine. Hope that helps.

It was a lucky hit. We don't need a conspiracy or inadvertent "leakage" to explain it. One out of four people pulled off the street would have done just as well as Anita. And if her sole hit was a "warm" one her failure is just that much more definitive. She got a freebie and STILL blew it.

Anita will certainly be posting again tomorrow. What would happen if once, just ONCE, no one responded? She really HAS nowhere to go at this point. No reputable skeptical or scientific group is going to touch her. They need only refer to the IIG site or SVFF to learn all they need to know. Anita's had her 15 minutes (and then some). But now it's over.

Next "woo", please!

 

[Moochie]

As an aside, and Rodney aside, I've enjoyed this post-test discussion. Lots of good points and informative posts.

I agree. For those willing to learn something about these things the test and the pre- and post-test discussions have been very edifying. Well done, everyone!


M.

 

[AvalonXQ]

On the 'litigious' point, you may not be aware that since the test she has threatened at least two people with lawsuits.

I find that to be completely appalling. Using the test and surrounding chatter as a springboard to attack others is really unsavory.

 

[cj.23]

I find that to be completely appalling. Using the test and surrounding chatter as a springboard to attack others is really unsavory.

Agreed. I was astounded by this. Lawsuits? What on Earth?!!!
cj x

 

[cj.23]

On the 'litigious' point, you may not be aware that since the test she has threatened at least two people with lawsuits.

Thanks Sleepy Lioness. That is absolutely despicable. I am speechless. This is internet chatter, nothing more, nothing less.
cj x

 

[cj.23]

Interesting about the migraine stuff. It's not actually as villainous as it could be - if anyone got better, even by placebo, hell it would be an improvement. If they stopped seeking decent medical help, that would be a tragedy - but not actually down to VFF. At least with migraine if you are suffering an attack you are not going to say "but I'm cured really". You are going to be very upset and seek help. If this goes beyond migraine, to less discernible conditions, like my friend who died of breast cancer after seeking alternative therapies and rejecting medical treatment, my wrath would be terrible,and I'd be writing a cheque to stopVFF right now (if I actually had any money in my bank account).

cj x

 

[sleepy_lioness]

Of course, migraine-type symptoms can also be a sign of serious neurological disorder.

 

[cj.23]

Of course, migraine-type symptoms can also be a sign of serious neurological disorder.

Absolutely - but of you don't get better, you will almost certainly seek help. Other symptoms, like aphasia, or loss of motor control, being more ambivalent than a thumping pain in the head would worry me far more. Start treating that by laying on of hands I may be tempted to lay hands on the psychic...

cj x

 

[Akhenaten]

It was a lucky hit. We don't need a conspiracy or inadvertent "leakage" to explain it. One out of four people pulled off the street would have done just as well as Anita. And if her sole hit was a "warm" one her failure is just that much more definitive. She got a freebie and STILL blew it.

Yup. Welcome alleracsum. I see you've brought a hammer with which to hit nails squarely on the head. Good job!

Anita will certainly be posting again tomorrow. What would happen if once, just ONCE, no one responded?

I had have to re-assess my entire view of the Universe because at the moment I would swear that such a thing is completely impossible.

She really HAS nowhere to go at this point. No reputable skeptical or scientific group is going to touch her. They need only refer to the IIG site or SVFF to learn all they need to know. Anita's had her 15 minutes (and then some). But now it's over.

There was some criticism of the IIG for actually proceeding with the test, for various reasons. I'd like to think that your observation will be shared by many, and that having a record of this fiasco (the claim, not the test) is a valuable asset. Anita may do everything she can to fudge her version of the result, but the IIG record, along with discussions here and at that other awful place, SVFF, will stand.

Anyone in the future who wishes to investigate the Vision from Phenomenon will surely find these three sites, read the results, and our work will be done. Mostly.

Next "woo", please!

I have your back.

 

[bookitty]

Interesting about the migraine stuff. It's not actually as villainous as it could be - if anyone got better, even by placebo, hell it would be an improvement. If they stopped seeking decent medical help, that would be a tragedy - but not actually down to VFF. At least with migraine if you are suffering an attack you are not going to say "but I'm cured really". You are going to be very upset and seek help. If this goes beyond migraine, to less discernible conditions, like my friend who died of breast cancer after seeking alternative therapies and rejecting medical treatment, my wrath would be terrible,and I'd be writing a cheque to stopVFF right now (if I actually had any money in my bank account).

cj x

Migraines suck. There's no other way to put it. They are also random in occurrence and can be triggered by the most innocuous thing or they can cease for months with no change in lifestyle.

Migraine sufferers are a perfect target for the woo. None of the medical treatments work for everyone. So many migraine sufferes have already gone through a number of medical treatments, searching for the right one. The randomness of occurrences makes it easy to apply confirmation bias to any treatment. If you have been having migraines twice a month, you try something and don't get a migraine for three weeks, you will think it may have worked.

They apply this thinking to "alternative" treatments as well. When a new cycle of more frequent migraines starts up, the patient doesn't think that the woo didn't work, they think it wasn't the right woo. That, like traditional medicine, they need to find the right treatment. It makes them extremely vulnerable to fraud.

My mother's quest for a migraine free life included touch healing, reiki, acupuncture, herbs, rolfing, past life regression and therapy, some colored lights in the eyes nonsense, chiropractors, colloidal silver, hypnosis, crystal therapy, EST, chelation, an organic diet, homeopathy, and other even more silly ideas.

She found a "migraine specialist" who told her that her skull was mis-aligned. So she paid thousands of dollars for this "doctor" to stick angioplasty balloons up her nose, through her sinus cavities to adjust her skull bones. It didn't get rid of the migraines but it changed the shape of her face.

Many of the alternative medicine practitioners that she went to introduced her to the next. It didn't work, well your chakras are all over the place, let's get that straightened out and then everything will be jake. Oh except you've got a blocked meridian, so you need to see this or that acupuncturist. On and on.

No, she didn't die. But she is bankrupt, and there's no retirement in sight because she has no retirement fund.

 

[bookitty]

Hmmm, trigger much? Sorry to be so long and OT.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

and while I think she should accept she failed it, she certainly was a lot more brave, gracious and decent than those who constantly refuse to be tested at all.

From what I've read, she readily accepts that she failed the test. She just does not accept that it means anything.

She also is making a new claim (that she knows when she's right and when she's wrong when she guesses about missing kidneys), and refuses to admit that this is a new claim that contradicts the claim for which she was tested. She claims her performance on the IIG demonstration merits further investigation, contrary to what she agreed before the test.

I don't find her to be more gracious and decent than anyone for the simple reason that she reneged on her agreement. (See post 935 in particular.) I see nothing admirable about making an agreement and breaking compared to someone who refuses to make an agreement in the first place. (Reminds me of the Seinfeld bit about what it means for the rental car business to make a reservation. If you make a reservation but don't keep it, it's really not a reservation!)

 

[Akhenaten]

Hmmm, trigger much? Sorry to be so long and OT.

Not so much OT, actually. It reminds me that the IIG test was going to provide Vision from Feeling with an opportunity to conduct a side-test into this migraine business. I'd say it's doubly fortunate that things didn't pan out that way or the current obfuscation would have looked like distilled clarity by comparison.

 

[ynot]

She also is making a new claim (that she knows when she's right and when she's wrong when she guesses about missing kidneys), and refuses to admit that this is a new claim that contradicts the claim for which she was tested. She claims her performance on the IIG demonstration merits further investigation, contrary to what she agreed before the test.

Also contradicts credibility of course. Who would knowingly give a wrong result when they are attempting to give a right result? It's just another one of her ludicrous and dishonest multi-level chances of claiming “success” from failure.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but this comment, and other similar comments of yours, present the impression that you have never been involved in the actual testing of an applicant for a paranormal challenge.

Irrelevant.

What you are asking for is not done by the JREF, the IIG, or any other organization that has a paranormal challenge that I am aware of.

That's false. JREF does not ordinarily do MDC testing (even a preliminary) without an agreement on the protocol--and my understanding is the protocol is that for a final test.

I know first-hand that the JREF does not do this because the IIG has been involved in the preliminary testing of U.S. West Coast applicants for the past several years and this has never come up in any of our discussions with Alison, Jeff, Kramer, or Randi himself.

And you have examples of preliminary testing that was done with no agreement on a final protocol?

You are obviously very passionate about protocol design, and the IIG took several of your comments to heart when designing the Anita Ikonen protocol, but unless you have been involved in the actual testing of an applicant for the JREF MDC I think it would be better for you to not say how they operate.

I choose to ignore your advice. Whether or not I've been involved in the actual testing of an applicant for the JREF MDC does not affect the content of what I've said.

I recognize the IIG is free to do what it wants with its Challenge, my only point is that it's misleading to say that Anita was participating in a $50K challenge, since no money was ever at risk and there was no agreement on a protocol for the $50K test--nor was such an agreement at all likely. If she had passed the preliminary demonstration, you would have then begun negotiations on the final protocol--at least that's the way I understand it.

Here are the pertinent rules in the JREF MDC (my bolding):

5. After an agreement is reached on the protocol, no part of the testing procedure may be changed in any way without the further agreement – in writing – of all parties concerned. JR may or may not be present at some preliminary or some formal tests, but he will not interact with the materials used, nor with the protocol, unless specifically requested to do so by the applicant.

6. In all cases, applicant will be required to perform a preliminary test either before an appointed representative, if distance and time dictate that need, or in a location where a member or representative of the JREF staff can attend. This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test, using the agreed-upon protocol. To date, no applicant has passed the preliminary test, and this has eliminated the need for formal testing in those cases. There is no limit on the number of times an applicant may re-apply, but re-application can take place only after 12 months have elapsed since the completion of the preliminary test.

The way I read this, the protocol must be agreed upon before the preliminary test is done. I realize Randi has the right to waive any of the rules as he sees fit (and that's usually just the red tape requirements with high-profile people), but this is the standard procedure.

The point I'm making is not a big deal. And it's only based on what I've read on the threads here. If IIG had already reached an agreement with Anita wrt to the final test protocol, I will happily withdraw my criticism, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[bookitty]

<snip for succinctness>
The way I read this, the protocol must be agreed upon before the preliminary test is done. I realize Randi has the right to waive any of the rules as he sees fit (and that's usually just the red tape requirements with high-profile people), but this is the standard procedure.

The point I'm making is not a big deal. And it's only based on what I've read on the threads here. If IIG had already reached an agreement with Anita wrt to the final test protocol, I will happily withdraw my criticism, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Disclaimer, I have never been involved with the design for any protocol.

From what I have read, the initial test is generally anticipated to be the only test, because no applicant has ever gotten beyond it. Even these initial tests are often elaborate in design with much back and forth between claimant and the organization.

To add a final, finished, win-the-money protocol on top of all that seems like it would be almost unbearably complicated and aggravating. Perhaps some high-profile cases have done it to make the initial test more exciting? If you have specific examples, it would be very interesting to check them out.

 

[cj.23]

Migraines suck. There's no other way to put it. They are also random in occurrence and can be triggered by the most innocuous thing or they can cease for months with no change in lifestyle.

I'm so sorry to hear that Bookitty about your mum. That was pretty much my point - migraines are utterly horrendous, and being a symptom rather perhaps than a disorder they can be triggered by a multitude of factors. I ma very lucky to suffer infrequently, and I have some faith in medication because it works for me - but not for others I know. I think if someone claimed to have psychically cured one of my migraines and the pain did not go down I would let them know about it

In the UK my experience is that "allegies" are the most commonly cited woo. I had a girlfriend who appeared to react to of all thing cochineal - even if she did not know the colouring was in the product. However I have seen MANY friends who have given up dairy, wheat, gluten, you name it, for absolutely no good reason.

cj x

 

[SezMe]

Joe, were you around during the GSIC fun? That involved a test at IIG that was preliminary to the MDC. That preliminary test was conducted but I don't think JREF had accepted the identical protocol for the final. LostAngeles was the stand-in claimant and might be able add her memory of the process. Or we could see if it is possible to dredge up the relevant threads.