The Sensitive Issue of Circumcision

[fls]

I'm confused... which is hardly surprising as I am decidedly unskilled at deciphering medical stuff

I'd appreciate a brief explanation of what you think (know?) the information they collected did show

Thanks

It was stated that the rise and fall of circumcision was driven by physicians. The scant information presented as to the attitude and behaviour of physicians showed that influential physicians were opposed to the practice, it was performed upon request by the parents, and that given a choice physicians would prefer not to perform the procedure. There is no information showing that these attitudes and behaviours changed during the entire period under consideration.

What was shown was that attitudes among the general public changed during the period under consideration, and that the procedure was no longer done at public expense. The rate of circumcision did change in conjunction with those changes. It was also found that circumcision was most strongly associated with parental characteristics (father circumcised, grandmother attitude).

So it was shown that any variation in circumcision occurred independently of any variation (they did not actually demonstrate any variation) in physician behaviour and attitude.

Linda

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

So it was shown that any variation in circumcision occurred independently of any variation (they did not actually demonstrate any variation) in physician behaviour and attitude.

Linda

That's not quite correct. Physicians were the ones who promoted infant circumcision (cause), then it became really popular (effect).

It is very unlikely the medical community went from pro-circ. to anti-circ. overnight. E.g., Edgar Schoen

 

[TheLoneBedouin]

Don't do it.

Infant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or anaesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that genital cutting has physical, sexual and psychological consequences too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some circumcised men have described their current feelings in the language of violation, torture, mutilation and sexual assault. In view of the acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on unconsenting minors.

Have you ever heard of imprinting? You've probably seen the famous example of the ducklings following its mother in your psychology textbook.
The general idea is that the brain/nervous system/body complex is like a slate to be written on but it has a special natural disposition to accepting certain types of writing at certain stages. A child that is born blind will only learn to see normally if the cause of blindness is removed before a certain age. The circuits of the visual cortex lose their imprintability with age. The concept of imprinting applies to senses, motor functions, emotions and thinking but the windows of imprinting are different for each function. In some cases re-imprinting is possible but is much more difficult than imprinting during the natural window of sensitivity.
Trauma during imprinting stages can leave hard to correct, long lasting effects which can sometimes be very subtle and influence the person's emotions and modes of thinking without the person's awareness.
If you wait until your son turns 18 and can decide for himself, then there will be no possibility of danger.
Consider this quote from Paul Fleiss:

"The forced amputation of a healthy part of an infant's or child's genitals without his consent, whether in the name of medicine, religion or social custom, is a violation of his human rights."
- Paul M. Fleiss. MD, MPH

Some other key things to consider are the functions of the foreskin:

Functions of the foreskin listed by Fleiss and
Harryman include:
1. Protection of the glans through emollients that maintain the surface of the
glans penis.
2. Immune response: the soft mucosa of the foreskin contains plasma cells,
which secrete antibodies, and pathogen-killing enzymes such as
lysozymes.
3. Erogenous sensitivity: the foreskin contains a rich variety and large
concentration of highly specialized nerve receptors (e.g., Meissner’s and
Vater-Pacini corpuscles) and free nerve endings equivalent in sensitivity
to those of the fingertips, lips and mucosal lining of the mouth.
4. During erection the double-layered foreskin provides the skin necessary
to accommodate a normal erection and to allow movement of this skin
over the shaft and glans.
5. During masturbation, the foreskin enables a wide range of stimulatory
motion not possible in circumcised males.
6. During sexual intercourse the mucosa of the foreskin facilitates smooth
and gentle movement between the penis and the mucous membrane of
the vagina.

References:
Stop Male Infant Genital Mutilation
Male Circumcisionain, Trauma, and Psychosexual Sequelae
Physical, Sexual and Psychological Effects of Male
Infant Circumcision: an Exploratory Survey

 

[truethat]

Hmm I have three sons. Two sons from the prior marriage and for religious reasons we circumsized. Also because in the US everyone does it.

The third son I didn't do it. I couldn't justify doing it. Honestly I wish I had now just for the sake of now worrying about whether or not I should have done it. I wouldn't want him to have to do it as an adult and now he's too old for me to just do it without causing mental anguish and psychological issues.

So I don't know. I think if you do it, then its done and you don't have to think about it any more. You can't put it back.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Hmm I have three sons. Two sons from the prior marriage and for religious reasons we circumsized. Also because in the US everyone does it.

I don't mean to jump on this, but I couldn't possibly follow every post in this thread. Did someone already post regional or demographic circumcision rates in the US?

 

[fls]

Hmm I have three sons. Two sons from the prior marriage and for religious reasons we circumsized. Also because in the US everyone does it.

The third son I didn't do it. I couldn't justify doing it. Honestly I wish I had now just for the sake of now worrying about whether or not I should have done it. I wouldn't want him to have to do it as an adult and now he's too old for me to just do it without causing mental anguish and psychological issues.

So I don't know. I think if you do it, then its done and you don't have to think about it any more. You can't put it back.

Heh. I think this is the first time I've seen irreversibility as an argument in favour of infant circumcision.

Linda

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I don't mean to jump on this, but I couldn't possibly follow every post in this thread. Did someone already post regional or demographic circumcision rates in the US?

Actually (I'll try to find a link) now the rate is about 50% for newborns.

 

[jdp]

Heh. I think this is the first time I've seen irreversibility as an argument in favour of infant circumcision.

Linda

That's true, I don't think I've ever seen that before either because it makes no sense. Someone who isn't circumcised can of course get it done if they want but you can't really reverse it.

 

[jdp]

I don't mean to jump on this, but I couldn't possibly follow every post in this thread. Did someone already post regional or demographic circumcision rates in the US?

Actually (I'll try to find a link) now the rate is about 50% for newborns.

There are plenty of these surveys out there but good solid numbers are difficult to come by since a lot of these are done via a myriad of ways public vs private insurance vs cash. Though the overall numbers are thought to be approaching about 50% there are wide regional variations with the Western US leading the way at about the 1/3 or less mark and the mid-west having the highest rates. Even with in those individual states there can be wide variations. I think the policies of the Drs and Hospitals figure heavily into this but I can't provide substantial evidence of that statement.

 

[fls]

That's true, I don't think I've ever seen that before either because it makes no sense. Someone who isn't circumcised can of course get it done if they want but you can't really reverse it.

It does make sense.

When bombarded with the idea that you have to decide, making a decision that cannot be changed later makes the clamour go away. Doubt haunts you for longer when the possibility still exists for you to act on that doubt.

Linda

 

[truethat]

It does make sense.

When bombarded with the idea that you have to decide, making a decision that cannot be changed later makes the clamour go away. Doubt haunts you for longer when the possibility still exists for you to act on that doubt.

Linda

Exactly. Thanks for getting it.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

It does make sense.

When bombarded with the idea that you have to decide, making a decision that cannot be changed later makes the clamour go away. Doubt haunts you for longer when the possibility still exists for you to act on that doubt.

Linda

But that is a rather narrow and self-centered way of viewing the dilemma...

 

[osmosis]

now he's too old for me to just do it without causing mental anguish and psychological issues.

And what, exactly, leads you to believe you should "just do it"? It's standard equipment, and if it were better not to have it, we'd probably have evolved not to have it.

Speaking of mental anguish and psychological issues, how would you feel if you had something irreversible done to you before you were old enough to comprehend what was being done? How would you feel if others had decided what your prick looks like?

How does that feel, anyway? I imagine it feels pretty bad, but only if you think about it.

 

[truethat]

And what, exactly, leads you to believe you should "just do it"? It's standard equipment, and if it were better not to have it, we'd probably have evolved not to have it.

Speaking of mental anguish and psychological issues, how would you feel if you had something irreversible done to you before you were old enough to comprehend what was being done? How would you feel if others had decided what your prick looks like?

How does that feel, anyway? I imagine it feels pretty bad, but only if you think about it.

I don't think on average most men feel this way. Neither of my older two boys have. No man I know of. If you feel this way I suggest you seek therapy or something because I don't think its normal to be that upset by it.

What makes me think that maybe I should have done it is that I as a woman and most women I know prefer circumcized penis's and I worry that it might interfere with my son's sex life. In general in the US most men are circumcized, or at least they were, so it stands out. Maybe things will change or maybe it will stand out for good reasons by the time he's an adult but that's why I worry about it.

That's actually why I wonder if I should have done it.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I don't think on average most men feel this way. Neither of my older two boys have. No man I know of. If you feel this way I suggest you seek therapy or something because I don't think its normal to be that upset by it.

What makes me think that maybe I should have done it is that I as a woman and most women I know prefer circumcized penis's and I worry that it might interfere with my son's sex life. In general in the US most men are circumcized, or at least they were, so it stands out. Maybe things will change or maybe it will stand out for good reasons by the time he's an adult but that's why I worry about it.

That's actually why I wonder if I should have done it.

If he is a kid, then in his generation it will be far more common.

But seriously, that is why you want to circumcise your son? Because you are afraid a uncircumcised penis will be a turn off?

 

[truethat]

Tsuka are you really that eager to start a dialogue with me? After insulting me? I'm not interested.

Cheers.

 

[Loss Leader]

Speaking of mental anguish and psychological issues, how would you feel if you had something irreversible done to you before you were old enough to comprehend what was being done? How would you feel if others had decided what your prick looks like?

How does that feel, anyway? I imagine it feels pretty bad, but only if you think about it.

Is it so impossible to conceive of the possibility that you are wrong? Is it really so unimaginable to even consider that you may be mistaken? Is the only way someone could ever disagree with you really for him not to have thought about the issue.

I have thought about it. It does not bother me that somehing irreversible was done to me before I was old enough to comprehend what was being done. After long and careful consideration, it feels fine that others decided what my prick looks like. Your imagination has led you astray; it does not feel pretty bad.

Now, I am sure that you will respond with the usual "having been circumcised, LL's ego won't let him really comprehend how badly he was hurt." But you will be wrong. And you will still lack even the smallest hint of perspective.

 

[jdp]

I don't think on average most men feel this way. Neither of my older two boys have. No man I know of. If you feel this way I suggest you seek therapy or something because I don't think its normal to be that upset by it.

Would find it equally absurd if your son decided to get circumcised as an adult?

What makes me think that maybe I should have done it is that I as a woman and most women I know prefer circumcized penis's and I worry that it might interfere with my son's sex life. In general in the US most men are circumcized, or at least they were, so it stands out. Maybe things will change or maybe it will stand out for good reasons by the time he's an adult but that's why I worry about it.

That's actually why I wonder if I should have done it.

A couple of things to consider. I don't think this scenario has been relevant in the US for sometime and certainly will not be for your son. Sure perhaps as recently as 15 or 20 years ago most Americans were ignorant enough to think men were actually born circumcised but those days are mostly over. In the first place, circumcision is far less common in your sons generation than yours. He, as will his peers, will know more about circumcision by 13 than most adults having children did even 10 years ago, thanks in no small part to places like this. So basically it probably won't be a big deal to him or his girlfriend. But let's say he meets a girl for whom it is a big deal, do you really want your son to be with a women so shallow that she rejects him because he isn't circumcised? It's fine to have a preference, hair color, eye color, height, body type, ect but if someone out right rejected your son because of some physical trait, is that really the person you want your son with? This particular trait especially because one would assume there is already some physical attraction and intimacy between them before she finds this out. Doesn't seem like someone I would want to waste my time with.

 

[fls]

I don't think on average most men feel this way. Neither of my older two boys have. No man I know of. If you feel this way I suggest you seek therapy or something because I don't think its normal to be that upset by it.

What makes me think that maybe I should have done it is that I as a woman and most women I know prefer circumcized penis's and I worry that it might interfere with my son's sex life. In general in the US most men are circumcized, or at least they were, so it stands out. Maybe things will change or maybe it will stand out for good reasons by the time he's an adult but that's why I worry about it.

That's actually why I wonder if I should have done it.

You are not alone. As the mother of uncircumcised boys, I understand your worry. I've heard this concern from other parents as well.

Just remind yourself, that as current trends continue, he won't stand out any longer. Plus, if a situation pops up where some woman really considers this a deterrent, doesn't it suggest that the circumstances and/or the woman are something that should be avoided anyway?

Linda

 

[truethat]

Would find it equally absurd if your son decided to get circumcised as an adult?



A couple of things to consider. I don't think this scenario has been relevant in the US for sometime and certainly will not be for your son. Sure perhaps as recently as 15 or 20 years ago most Americans were ignorant enough to think men were actually born circumcised but those days are mostly over. In the first place, circumcision is far less common in your sons generation than yours. He, as will his peers, will know more about circumcision by 13 than most adults having children did even 10 years ago, thanks in no small part to places like this. So basically it probably won't be a big deal to him or his girlfriend. But let's say he meets a girl for whom it is a big deal, do you really want your son to be with a women so shallow that she rejects him because he isn't circumcised? It's fine to have a preference, hair color, eye color, height, body type, ect but if someone out right rejected your son because of some physical trait, is that really the person you want your son with? This particular trait especially because one would assume there is already some physical attraction and intimacy between them before she finds this out. Doesn't seem like someone I would want to waste my time with.

No obviously that's true, I understand that but at the same time I don't know the future.

Two of my sons are circumcized and one is not. I see absolutely no difference whatsoever in them because of it. If it wasn't a social norm to some degree I wouldn't bat an eyelash.

So if the OP is wondering if its some big difference, its not. I have not had any issue with it ever.