The powerlessness of prayer

[six7s]

When you worship jugs of milk you only debase yourself, and then you’ll have to bear the angst of waiting for punishment; and it’s not a matter of if, but when.

Please, do furnish evidence that supports your claim of any such "punishment" being exacted on anyone, alive or dead

Thank you in advance

 

[six7s]

When you worship jugs of milk you only debase yourself, and then you’ll have to bear the angst of waiting for punishment; and it’s not a matter of if, but when.

Please, do describe something, anything that you can worship without debasing yourself

TYIA

 

[dafydd]

Yes indeed, prayer is powerless to all God haters!!!

I don't hate any god or gods.How can you hate something that does not exist?

I'm not too keen on people who do awful things in the name of an imaginary god or gods.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

When you worship jugs of milk you only debase yourself, and then you’ll have to bear the angst of waiting for punishment; and it’s not a matter of if, but when.

Who said anything about worshiping? Either way you're still missing the point.

When you pray, do a dance or otherwise ask an object, person or deity for something, one of three things can happen:

• You are granted the wish soon.
• You are granted the wish later.
• You are not granted the wish.

With me so far? Good.

Now, am I right or wrong when I say that you're hedging your bet when you say that all three are somehow a positive result (yes, wait, no), or at least indicative of a god replying?

I do a snow dance. It starts snowing: Success! The gods have witnessed my dance and are pleased enough to grant me snow!
I do a snow dance. It starts snowing two weeks later: Success! The gods, working in their usual mysterious ways, just had to let me wait a little.
I do a snow dance. There's no snow: The gods have obviously decided, for reasons my mortal mind can't comprehend, that there shouldn't be snow. Success!

Can you prove that praying to Yahweh, Asherah, Odin, Mara or some other god or goddess is more effective than praying to a Nemi comic?

Please, do furnish evidence that supports your claim of any such "punishment" being exacted on anyone, alive or dead

The problem is that Ali can use any misfortune after the 'debasing' as evidence you're being punished by Yahweh. Just like I can use any misfortune to Ali as proof he's being punished for not praying to a jug of milk, come to think of it.

Yes indeed, prayer is powerless to all God haters!!!

Fixed it for you.

 

[Marcus]

Yes indeed, prayer is powerless to all God haters!!!

Ali, could you give us an example of a fictional character that you hate, or are even just mad at? This would help us to understand your reasoning.

 

[Nick227]

I've been reading about Bernard Baars' Global Workspace Theory recently. It strikes me that if Baars is right (and a lot of researchers apparently think he is at least very much on the right track) then perhaps his theory goes some way towards asserting a power to prayer.

As I understand Baars, he is saying that consciousness is simply the most effective means that evolution has found to broadcast critical information to our vast resources of unconscious processing. If this is so then it seems to me that regularly compelling consciousness to be filled with a particular prayer, wish or invocation should be expected to provide some kind of result, given our immense unconscious resources.

Nick

 

[Ali]

Please, do describe something, anything that you can worship without debasing yourself

TYIA

We’re back to basics again. I’m afraid that’s where you are when you ask such questions!!

 

[Safe-Keeper]

We’re back to basics again.

Well, while we're here, why don't you show us some empirical evidence of prayer to Yahweh working better than prayers to Zeus or a jug of milk. If you dislike the comparison, all you need to do is provide some actual evidence it's false. You've called us god-haters and other nice things for seven pages, maybe it's time to change your tune and actually contribute a bit?

 

[Ali]

Ali, could you give us an example of a fictional character that you hate, or are even just mad at? This would help us to understand your reasoning.

Hi Marcus,
I haven’t really thought about anyone I may want to hate;
To be more exact I don’t hate anyone or if I used to, I’ve no hard feelings now.
Its actions (like gross indecency) that I dislike, not people.

 

[Marcus]

Hi Ali,
I mentioned that because we get a lot of religious people here that think that atheists must be "mad at" god, even though they know that atheists don't believe in god. So as I thought experiment, you might try to envision what it would be like to be mad at a character you believe is fictional, say Zeus, for example. Does your disbelief in Zeus mean that you are mad at him, or hate him? Does your denial of Zeus mean that you are part of a non-Zeus religion? If you think about this, you will realize it is not even possible for an atheist to hate god.

 

[Ali]

Hi Ali,
I mentioned that because we get a lot of religious people here that think that atheists must be "mad at" god, even though they know that atheists don't believe in god. So as I thought experiment, you might try to envision what it would be like to be mad at a character you believe is fictional, say Zeus, for example. Does your disbelief in Zeus mean that you are mad at him, or hate him? Does your denial of Zeus mean that you are part of a non-Zeus religion? If you think about this, you will realize it is not even possible for an atheist to hate god.

When you worship jugs of milk you only debase yourself, and then you’ll have to bear the angst of waiting for punishment; and it’s not a matter of if, but when.

Atheist or otherwise, my above quote applies to all.

 

[Ethnikos]

The Native Americans had allegedly magical dances they performed with the intent to produce rain. They'd dance to ask the gods for rain, and sooner or later, inevitably, precipitation would occur and be attributed to their gods. I don't know what arguments they had to explain the lack of rain, but it probably went along the same lines as the arguments of Christians today - the tribesmen weren't dancing hard enough, didn't deserve rain in the first place for some arbitrary reason, or were the subjects of some higher plan.

There is a spiritual rain that could come, despite the lack of visible physical rain. It could be the promise that rain will come, once the spirits were successful in cleansing the earth of evil.
Prayers do not go up to the Great Granter of Wishes in the sky. They are a part of our spiritual essence, without which, we become spiritually dead.
Man was created to be connected to the earth and the sky. We were meant to commune with the spirits of all living creates and they could commune with us as if we were their god.
We have lost our way and we have harmed the earth and we take the lives of the creatures of the earth without so much as a by your leave or a I am sorry to have to take this spirit from you.
We know that some of our fathers who were old and wise were good men and have gone to the great spirit and they know the ways of the spirit world and we ask them for help because we are surrounded by the evil ones and they hear our asking and fight them and we who are not so old and not so wise can grow our crops and have a harvest and eat food and live to be old ourselves some day.

 

[six7s]

Prayers do not go up to the Great Granter of Wishes in the sky. They are a part of our spiritual essence, without which, we become spiritually dead.

You say this like (a) you know what you're talking about and (b) being spiritually dead is a bad thing^(tm)
Please, describe and explain the benefits of being spiritually undead

 

[Ethnikos]

You say this like (a) you know what you're talking about and (b) being spiritually dead is a bad thing^(tm)
Please, describe and explain the benefits of being spiritually undead

What I am saying (something I think I said a long time ago on this thread) is that prayer is not this kind of wish making apparatus, as if it is something that is not part of us but can be turned on when we want something. Also God is not there for the purpose of granting wishes like a genie in a bottle.
The universe is made of and is held together by spiritual forces and the material nature of it is only an aspect of it that is perceivable for our benefit.
We can walk around in it and go about our daily lives in it and have a form about us and be people among things that are not ourselves.
We were meant to be interactive with the universe in more than a only physical way. We were supposed to be able to operate in a spiritual sort of way but our natures have turned to the material because we have been distracted by it and are caught up in it as if it is the only thing that is important. It is but it is not the way to grow and become better. We have been content on maintaining our material existence without making use of the spiritual aspects of the universe.
There is a god and he is high above us but with him are the elders of the human race who are of old and watch over us and represent us before God. God in turn lends the elders the spirit beings at his command to help the elders to fight the demons who prowl the earth to keep down the people. They are the usurpers of the God quality of Man. They want man to die and not to live long lives, because they are afraid that they will gain wisdom to take their rightful place on this planet and then on all the planets and throw them out and shut the door on them.
Meanwhile we have a limited ability to interact on our spirit level and can only get up to where we can be heard by those who watch over us. we depend on them to do what we have lost the ability to do on our own.

 

[Ethnikos]

Sorry about bringing back this old thread.
I looked back at it because I had put a bunch of posts on it a while back.
I ran across this remark that I somehow took personally.
I got a little riled up and felt like defending what probably does not need defending because it stands on its own merit even if people do not understand it.
If I was a little calmer, I would be all logical and say, of course I am a Christian and I put away the old ways and have taken the religion of my white brothers.
So my brother from Israel stands in a holy place in the spirit world and it is a place where only he can go and no one else. He is alone and he holds the very spirits in his hand and he is now the greatest of all spirits and mighty in battle and is the Lord of Hosts and a great warrior.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

The universe is made of and is held together by spiritual forces

What if it wasn't?

 

[six7s]

Prayers do not go up to the Great Granter of Wishes in the sky. They are a part of our spiritual essence, without which, we become spiritually dead.

You say this like (a) you know what you're talking about and (b) being spiritually dead is a bad thing^(tm)
Please, describe and explain the benefits of being spiritually undead

What I am saying (something I think I said a long time ago on this thread) is that prayer is not this kind of wish making apparatus, as if it is something that is not part of us but can be turned on when we want something. Also God is not there for the purpose of granting wishes like a genie in a bottle.
The universe is made of and is held together by spiritual forces and the material nature of it is only an aspect of it that is perceivable for our benefit.
We can walk around in it and go about our daily lives in it and have a form about us and be people among things that are not ourselves.
We were meant to be interactive with the universe in more than a only physical way. We were supposed to be able to operate in a spiritual sort of way but our natures have turned to the material because we have been distracted by it and are caught up in it as if it is the only thing that is important. It is but it is not the way to grow and become better. We have been content on maintaining our material existence without making use of the spiritual aspects of the universe.
There is a god and he is high above us but with him are the elders of the human race who are of old and watch over us and represent us before God. God in turn lends the elders the spirit beings at his command to help the elders to fight the demons who prowl the earth to keep down the people. They are the usurpers of the God quality of Man. They want man to die and not to live long lives, because they are afraid that they will gain wisdom to take their rightful place on this planet and then on all the planets and throw them out and shut the door on them.
Meanwhile we have a limited ability to interact on our spirit level and can only get up to where we can be heard by those who watch over us. we depend on them to do what we have lost the ability to do on our own.

Fascinating reply....

However, it seems you overlooked one point:

• Please, describe and explain the benefits of being spiritually undead

 

[Foster Zygote]

What if it wasn't?

It would look pretty much the same as what we see now.

 

[godless dave]

There is a spiritual rain that could come, despite the lack of visible physical rain. It could be the promise that rain will come, once the spirits were successful in cleansing the earth of evil.

So in other words, prayer doesn't do anything.

 

[Ethnikos]

What if it wasn't?

The definition of God is the infinite mind. He has to be to make everything exist, all at the same time. He does it on a spiritual level so that it is the universe and not an alternate universe that we might imagine for ourselves. I think there needs to be one that is persistent, that others can be a branch of. Without pure spirit, all you get is a fragmentary and temporary universe.