The powerlessness of prayer

[aofl]

It looks to me like this sums it all up nicely:

http://miscellanea.wellingtongrey.net/comics/2008-12-01-prayer-vs-hard-work.png

 

[psy kick]

OK, I'll admit I haven't read evey post in this thread yet I am posting. My point is that the Jews or any group who had no chance and died during the holocaust or during any other BS period who prayed fell under the people who pray demographic. No one who prayed harder than anyone else was saved.

Fast forward to what goes on today. People who have screwed up and drank or did drugs and now are in recovery think that god has answered their prayers. god evidently picks and chooses a demographic of wealthy alcohol/drug users to save over people who were being shoved in the ovens.

god is one sick mother...

Truly thats sums it up.

 

[RandFan]

For me it seems as clear-cut as these kinds of things can be. I appreciate that it does not appear the same to you.

My recollection from a decade or so ago was that it was fairly common in some circles to demean the apparent ameliorative effects of placebo drugs, affirmations and similar as being "all in the mind." To me, this insinuates dualism, as it is implying that mental events and physical events are not the same. It is not definitely stating dualism, as we both agree, but to me it does infer it.

Well, if I were still a dualist I might (might) agree. I'm trying to put myself into that mindset and I'll admit it's a bit difficult but if I did see it that way then hindsight tells me that any such inference that I might draw would be a mistake on my part. I did that often BTW. I'll admit it.

 

[RandFan]

I don't think it's psuedoscience and bunk. We have been able to show that state of mind and personality can have physiological effects, including effects on the immune system. However, the immune system is flexible and redundant, so effects may not translate into clinical differences.

I noted with interest a youtube video from an article by Randi. It was his debunking of Beinveniste's homeopathic claims (memory of water). It's a great video and deals quite a bit with the placebo effect and deals with the importance of reduction of stress for healing though I concede that the statements are simply asserted and assumed but interesting nonetheless.

Linky

 

[Nick227]

Well, if I were still a dualist I might (might) agree. I'm trying to put myself into that mindset and I'll admit it's a bit difficult but if I did see it that way then hindsight tells me that any such inference that I might draw would be a mistake on my part. I did that often BTW. I'll admit it.

For me it's just a question of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Parapsychology and homeopathy may be bunk for all I know but it's clear that beliefs and expectations can and do act as causal agents.

Nick

 

[six7s]

For me it's just a question of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Parapsychology and homeopathy may be bunk for all I know but it's clear that beliefs and expectations can and do act as causal agents.

Nick

That's nice

Can you explain what relevance that post has in a discussion on the powerlessness of prayer?

 

[Nick227]

That's nice

Can you explain what relevance that post has in a discussion on the powerlessness of prayer?

Some prayers are beliefs.

Nick

 

[six7s]

That's nice

Can you explain what relevance that post has in a discussion on the powerlessness of prayer?

Some prayers are beliefs.

Nick

I'll take that as a 'no', then

 

[RandFan]

For me it's just a question of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Parapsychology and homeopathy may be bunk for all I know but it's clear that beliefs and expectations can and do act as causal agents.

Nick

Perahps the fault lies with me but I've got to agree with six7s. We've wandered off the reservation. Prayer doesn't work. It's demonstrable that it doesn't work. It might have a calming effect and it might work as a placebo but beyond that there is nothing to it. It's magical thinking that can't be falsified. By the standards set for prayer a jug of milk does in fact work. There are 3 options.

God will answer your prayer in one of 3 ways.

By granting you your wish.
By saying "no".
By saying "wait".

A jug of milk will do the same even if we are only talking about feeling better.

People can get better or find their wallets if they don't pray so it stands to reason that praying to a jug of milk will work some of the time also.
The jug of milk can also effectively say "no".
The jug of milk can also effectively say "wait".

 

[Nick227]

Perahps the fault lies with me but I've got to agree with six7s. We've wandered off the reservation. Prayer doesn't work. It's demonstrable that it doesn't work. It might have a calming effect and it might work as a placebo but beyond that there is nothing to it. It's magical thinking that can't be falsified. By the standards set for prayer a jug of milk does in fact work. There are 3 options.

God will answer your prayer in one of 3 ways.

By granting you your wish.
By saying "no".
By saying "wait".

A jug of milk will do the same even if we are only talking about feeling better.

People can get better or find their wallets if they don't pray so it stands to reason that praying to a jug of milk will work some of the time also.
The jug of milk can also effectively say "no".
The jug of milk can also effectively say "wait".

I agree that prayer does not work in the sense of it evoking into activity some ever-present spiritual entity that can alter destiny. At least there's no evidence afaik that this could happen.

Nick

 

[Nick227]

I'll take that as a 'no', then

Had you asked me whether I felt it related to the content of the OP, six7s, I would have had to agree that it certainly does not appear to do so. However, if we're discussing the powerlessness of prayer itself then it seems to me that examining a materialist viewpoint can be useful.

Nick

 

[six7s]

I agree that prayer does not work in the sense of it evoking into activity some ever-present spiritual entity that can alter destiny. At least there's no evidence afaik that this could happen.

So... do you have a point to make in this discussion?

 

[six7s]

...then it seems to me that examining a materialist viewpoint can be useful.

Useful? To what end?

 

[Nick227]

So... do you have a point to make in this discussion?

I have a few, yes. Scientific research has shown that there appear to be neurobiological mechanisms to account for the "placebo effect." There's reason to believe that mass coherent activity may accrue effects which are not present when actions are undertaken alone. We may need beliefs in order to function properly at a neurobiological level. I wouldn't fancy defending the last one with my level of knowledge but it seems to me that it may be one consequence of the first and that it might provide a means to understand some behaviour around praying.

I'm quite interested in the subject area. I'm not here just to be skeptical. Of course I also like to wind up those materialists who think that materialism can create a common sense-based model for how the brain produces consciousness, but then this can also be regarded as a service if you ask me. (eta: and thus a more constructive means to make use of my predilection for arguing)

Nick

eta: also, for me personally, I find it important to really investigate if there are personal needs being met by religious and spiritual activity, whether social or neurological. If this is done, and more authentic ways found to meet those needs, then religion and spirituality will die out a great deal more quickly and easily.

 

[Ali]

Nick

eta: also, for me personally, I find it important to really investigate if there are personal needs being met by religious and spiritual activity, whether social or neurological. If this is done, and more authentic ways found to meet those needs, then religion and spirituality will die out a great deal more quickly and easily.

It’s good to be objective, but when you become too objective you become non-objective and start to spout nonsense: I’m afraid that’s what’s happened here. I suggest you think before you talk.

 

[Foster Zygote]

It’s good to be objective, but when you become too objective you become non-objective and start to spout nonsense: I’m afraid that’s what’s happened here. I suggest you think before you talk.

That's pretty nonsensical.

By the way, have you heard the barking dogs version of Jingle Bells?

It goes:

ARF ARF ARF - ARF ARF ARF
ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF

 

[Macoy]

Wot you looking at?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mvo/3120907716/

 

[Ethnikos]

My Sister on Lisa Williams

I mentioned my sister a few times on this thread, so it might not be too inappropriate to mention her here again, to give a little update.
Her friend told her to watch this psychic show on Lifetime. She did and was impressed enough to apply to be on it. She did an audition in Beverly Hills and got accepted. You can watch it at: http://www.mylifetime.com/on-tv/shows/lisa-williams/video/full-episodes-voices-from-the-other-side/episode-1/1873841473 (it is six minutes into part 2 of episode 1 and goes into the first few minutes of part 3)
This psychic communicated with her dead fiancé. There is about ten minutes that made it onto the show from about an hour and a half long interview. There were a lot of things that were told to her that only she knew about and could not have been given, somehow, by someone else.
So, I would have to say there was some sort of supernatural event going on here. I can not say exactly what, but it was something real. I tried to analyze what she was telling me, to figure out if there was another explanation, but for some of it, there can not be.
I thought I would post this bit of info because it is something you can watch on TV (or watch on demand on the web site link). This is my sister, so if you have any questions about the show and the actual reading you can ask me. To me, the whole thing is somewhat peculiar and I have my doubts about her really talking to a dead person. I personally believe it would be more like deceiving spirits who have knowledge of personal tragedies and can play with them. (she does not read this forum so I can say that without upsetting her.)

 

[six7s]

So, I would have to say there was some sort of supernatural event going on here. I can not say exactly what, but it was something real.

I suggest that, assuming you want to be sceptical and not perhaps gullible, you read up on the following:

• hot reading
  

  Hot reading is a technique used by psychics, mediums, palm readers, and the like that involves surreptitiously gaining information from clients. <snip/>

• cold reading
  

  Cold reading goes beyond the usual tools of manipulation: suggestion and flattery. In cold reading, salespersons, hypnotists, advertising pros, faith healers, con men, and some therapists bank on their subject's inclination to find more meaning in a situation than there actually is. The desire to make sense out of experience can lead us to many wonderful discoveries, but it can also lead us to many follies
  <snip/>

• confirmation bias
  

  Numerous studies have demonstrated that people generally give an excessive amount of value to confirmatory information, that is, to positive or supportive data. The "most likely reason for the excessive influence of confirmatory information is that it is easier to deal with cognitively" (Gilovich 1993). It is much easier to see how a piece of data supports a position than it is to see how it might count against the position
  <snip/>

• subjective validation
  

  Sitters are often very compliant. A medium will say he senses a father figure trying to contact him from the spirit world and the sitter has only to find someone to fit the bill. It need not be the sitter's father. So, when the sitter identifies this father figure as her deceased husband, the medium is validated by the subject. The medium is validated by the subject when the medium says she is getting the message "I do not walk alone" and the sitter makes sense out of this by seeing it as a communication from a departed soul who was in a wheelchair before she died. There may be thousands of ways to make sense out of an ambiguous stimulus like the name 'Michael' or the expression 'broken wheel' but all it takes is for the sitter to find one and the medium is validated.
  <snip/>

• self-deception
  

  ...Fortunately, it is not necessary to know whether self-deception is due to unconscious motivations or not in order to know that there are certain situations where self-deception is so common that we must systematically take steps to avoid it. Such is the case with belief in paranormal or occult phenomena such as ESP, prophetic dreams, dowsing, therapeutic touch, facilitated communication, and a host of other topics taken up in the Skeptic's Dictionary.
  <snip/>

Maybe, after a bit of research, you might be able to say, instead of 'there was some sort of supernatural event going on', that there was some sort of trickery going on

 

[Ethnikos]

Trickery?

there was some sort of trickery going on

That was my first thought. She was telling me over the phone how to find the episode and I started watching it on mute. I told her that I could see how she passed the audition because she was very active and responsive and very expressive of her emotions. The psychic looked like she was reading her and going along with clues she was picking up.
There was a lot of the interview that did not get in that was puzzling to me. There may be one person who could have been a source of info and that was the girl who ended up driving him to the hospital after the injury. She is friends with my sister and everything the psychic said could have come straight from that one person. There would have been a record of who brought him to the hospital and a researcher could have found that young woman and found a way of getting the info. My sister does not think she would do that because she was a friend. I would like to know the exact timing between her becoming such a good friend and her application to get on the show.