MichaelDescado
New Blood
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2004
- Messages
- 10
For those of you expecting this to be a funny hatemail, well, sorry, it's not. It's an ongoing dialog I'm having with Pastor Ralph Heller, whose credentials will become apparent as you read the back and forth. Up until recently, said back and forth has been very civil, very respectful... except that the other night I kinda laid into him.
The story tells itself, so no more prologue is needed except to say that this is a perfect example of faith-based thinking versus fact-based thinking. Enjoy, consider, and even join in if you want. Minor changes have been made for spelling, grammar, and syntax.
Last week, out of the blue, I got the following email:
Hey, Mike,
Your Mom sikked me on you! I was her pastor when she was a skinny little teenager, and I'm sure she as hold you about me. She asked me to check out your website and make contact with you, and- ever the obedient servant- I have.
Now, having fulfilled my promise, you may choose to ignore me, and all that follows, and erase this message forever from your memory.
First, your website. I can only get glances at it, since- for some reason- once it loads, it promptly kicks me off to the Tripod directory. I've trying going around the barn by logging in to Tripod, then find your site, to no avail. So, all I have seen is the titles of your essays, and your photo eating a urine sickle. Okay! At least I picked up your email address.
You presently reside in one of my favorite cities. I grew up on northwestern South Carolina, and Asheville was a favorite place for summer outings. For nearly seven years I pastored a country church in Greenville, TN, just over the North Carolina/Tennessee line about 50 miles from Asheville. My wife and I went down frequently, among other things to grocery shop at a lower sales tax rate. So, I know your town quite well.
Anyway, Mom says you have biblical-theological questions, and I humbly offer my services as your answer man. I assure you that I am no fundamentalist. I was classically trained and steeped in the though of the whole Church without regard to denominational bias. A fifth-century French monk named Vincent of Lerins once said of the true Catholic, (whole church, not Roman necessarily) faith, "What has been believed everywhere, always, and by all." That's my position. Christian first, Lutheran second. I also hold an earned doctorate from the Graduate Theological Foundation at Notre Dame in sacramental theology. So, I do think I know my stuff.
Now that I have established my credentials, the ball is in your court. I am here for you if you wish to have any sort of dialog. If you don't, no hard feelings. I never try to persuade, only offer.
Your mom is coming to visit Rose (my wife) and myself on June 23, and I can tell her honestly I contacted you.
Peace,
Pastor Ralph Heller
***
I know what you're thinking, "Mike's about to hand this guy his own ass." Well, I didn't, though there was certainly the opportunity. For one thing, nobody "sikkes" anything on me- unless it's a pitbull, and said pitbull might get its ◊◊◊◊ ruined too. There was also the assumption, (no doubt fostered by my mother), that I was looking for religious answers, and that Ralph's credentials would qualify him to impart such answers.
Uh huh...
Not to mention that quote from Vincent of Lerins which insinuates that- beneath the petty details people disagree on- there's one subset of universal truths that all Christians adhere to.
Uh huh...
Alas, family factors kept me from unloading on this guy, namely because I have to be very, very careful when dealing with my mother and her friends. Without putting too fine a point on it, orchestrating peace with my parents supercedes pride, and my reply went something like this:
Ralph,
Yeah, I've been meaning to call Mom back. Hopefully, I'll get to it tonight. That's odd about the website, though you're not the first person that's complained about the tripod banners. I get about a hundred hits a day, compared to about 2 or 3 complaints of that nature each month or so, thus, I assume it's an isolated issue.
Please give it a shot again. (Try opening http://michaeldescado.tripod.com in one window, then open a second and go to http://michaeldescado.tripod.com)
As for my theological questions, well, I honestly don't have any. I pose questions to Mom from time to time in an attempt to get her to think critically and objectively about her "beliefs", but I don't have any lingering questions myself. The fact that she solicited your expertise might mean that I'm starting to get through to her- but, I highly doubt it.
If you can ever get on my site, my opinions on religion are thoroughly outlined in the "Not meant to be funny, but..." section. Basically, I'm an atheist, a scientist, and a skeptic. I harbor no beliefs of any kind that involve the supernatural. The things I DO put stock in, are those supported by empirical evidence. My beliefs can and do change with the evidence.
Hope that helps,
-Mike
***
The next day, I got this:
Mike,
Thanks for your reply. I will re-check your web site. Hey, it's not surprising that your Mom has a fundamentalist streak. I am quite aware of that. Not surprising down in that part of the world. (It's been 34 years since I left there, but some things you don't forget.) I nearly went crazy with the Baptists and other fundamentalists. People of whatever religious persuasion cannot but help picking up a lot of that garbage. She does call me from time to time and I endeavor to help her clarify her thinking. She is a very dear friend, but does- shall I say- sometimes comes on strong?
Anyway, we understand each other. I'll take an honest atheist any day over a hypocritical Christian! I won't bother you again, but if you ever want to dialog in my area of expertise, I'm here. By the way, there are a lot of things that are very true, but not empirically provable. The Greek of the New Testament has a word for it: Mysterion. Things we apprehend by faith though we cannot prove them. "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen," Hebrews 11:1.
Best wishes,
Pastor Ralph Heller
***
Ironically, Pastor Heller and I would've probably never spoken again if he hadn't ended his email with that verse from Hebrews. I HATE that verse! It's used all the time to falsely rationalize belief in nonsense. I don't have my actual reply to Ralph because I didn't save it, but it was short and to the point, but still very polite by my standards. The gist of it was that Hebrews 11:1, and passages like it, were the cause of horrible atrocities throughout human history. And that, again, ANY action can be justified when the so called evidence is nothing more than faith. I think I cited the Crusades and the 911 tragedy as examples.
This was his response:
Mike,
Anything can be misused. It's not the use, but the abuse. I have no use for religious fanatics of any variety, and certainly deplore the cruelties of things like the Crusades and the Inquisition, just as I deplore the meanness and stupidity of those people at Abu Gharib. Humans are capable of great depths of depravity, as well as great heights of enlightenment. It all depends on the inner nature, no matter what religion- or lack of any- one professes. Christianity, at least, recognizes a God of love, who bids us love one another. Can't go wrong with that. We just need to do it.
RH
***
I'd had enough. I could tell he was a nice man, a smart man, an educated man- but he picked the wrong guy on the wrong night of the week, (Saturday). Abandoning a small get-together a friend of mine was having, I stole off alone to the back office, poured myself a drink, and spent the next hour or so stabbing out the following on my laptop:
Ralph,
Now, I'm pretty much a nobody in the writing world. None of my books have been published, and- while my website seems to be providing more exposure than my FREAKING AGENT- I have no illusions about my opinions getting "out there". Still, I get a fair amount of hatemail from Christians, and I respond to each and every one of them, (I've even posted a few of the funnier responses on the site).
Our brief dialog back and forth BY NO MEANS falls under the category of hatemail, but some of your arguments are very, very contrived, and that's why I'll continue to reply. I certainly don't wanna bore/bother/offend you, and I don't ever want you to think that you're doing that to me. I LOVE talking to people; I LOVE seeing other people's points of view- it's one of the main ways I learn about the world.
As such, lemme' go point by point on a couple of things.
You wrote: "Anything can be misused. It's not the use, but the abuse."
While true, this statement is a broad and frequently cited justification for religion which I don't agree with. Yes, I suppose "anything" can be misused, but faith based belief structures are FAR more vulnerable to said abuses than fact based ones. Why? Because of emotion.
You see, proponents of the supernatural get to live in a world where ANYTHING is possible, and thus, the hardships of the human condition are escapable. Born with a debilitating birth defect? No problem, Jesus can heal you. And even if he doesn't, you'll have a perfect spiritual body in the afterlife. Lose a son on the battlefield? No problem, you'll get to see your courageous boy again in Valhalla. Poor? Starving? Homeless? No problem, Karma will see to it that you get a better shot next reincarnation. Gonna die? No problem, death is not the end.
Sounds pretty great, huh? Yep. That's why it's such an easy sale. There are so many religions in the world, and so many ways to interpret each of them, that nobody ever has to be left out. In this country, the generations coming up are a lot more educated and a lot less superstitious than the ones before, but that's not a problem either, as a whole host of new dogmas have sprung up to accommodate the more rational believer.
Where we once had prophets predicting the future by spilling the intestines of an animal, we now have psychics like John Edwards and Silva Brown, who can do the same things without seeming hokey or medieval. Where we once used meridians and charkas to magically manipulate chi, (and still do), we now have homeopathic remedies that can trump medical science if only you eat this particular root, or wear this particular kind of magnetic bracelet on your wrist. Where we once had deities, we now have extraterrestrials.
None of these things require critical thinking skills to accept, none of these things require years of hard science study to understand. All you have to do is believe, and the world becomes a much better place- a place of hope and wonder and miracles.
Who WOULDN'T wanna live in such a world?!? I know I would, which is why it took me so long to face my own doubts. I was a Christian for all of my childhood and adolescent years, and I spent most of my adulthood as an agnostic, (I couldn't blindly accept the inherent contradictions and blatant mythology of religion, but I needed to believe that SOMETHING was out there). You can read more about this personal journey in the article, "Why I'm an Atheist", but the point is, there came a time when I had to stop needing "truth", and start relying on "fact".
The loss of my faith was a disparaging ordeal, but I wasn't able to let it go because I'm tough or brave or jaded. I was able to let it go because I simply didn't have a choice. As it stands, I can no more "choose" to genuinely believe in God, then you could "choose" to genuinely believe in Santa Clause, or Thor, or fire-breathing dragons.
(Interesting tidbit on the latter one: I recently saw a movie called "Reign of Fire" with Mathew Machonnehey, and that film put a biological spin on the existence of fire-breathing dragons, where they could spit a flammable nitrogen based venom that ignited when exposed to open air. Cool, huh? Total ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ if you know anything about exothermic chemical reactions, but I thought it was admirable that the producers went the scientific route.)
Anyway, I'm getting WAY off track here, so lemme' try and "Reign" things in, (pardon the pun)...
Again, religion is a great and comforting perspective, and so, emotion plays heavily into it. If I was to say to you, "Ralph, everything you've devoted your life's study to is mythology, and its only value is purely anthropological." -How would that make you feel? Would you get angry? Would you laugh? Would you dismiss me as a stupid kid that doesn't know enough about life to tell you anything? Or would you merely pity me as a lost soul?
Maybe you'd do all of that, maybe you'd do none of it, but most people will fight to defend their beliefs, going so far as to kill any who dare question them.
Now, let's turn the tables. If you came up to me and said, "Mike, the forces of molecular attraction are not valid.", or, "Mike, evolution never happened, and it's not happening now.", or, "Mike, Carbon 14 dating is hogwash.", would I react the same way? Realistically, yes, because I have tons empirical data on my side. But, theoretically, I would abandon ANY of those principles in a heartbeat if you could provide sufficient evidence that I was wrong. No emotion, no fight, no deaths- I would simply go with the facts. That's just how I think, and more, I don't have anything to lose. There's no emotional attachment to my view of the universe because my ultimate salvation is not at stake.
This is my life: here, right now, in this house, typing on this laptop. One day I will die, and that'll be the end of me. I've accepted that, so I don't feel the need to tenaciously hold on to something like the Big Bang theory. If contradictory evidence pops up, (which it has), I incorporate the new stuff, smile at the wonders of human intellect, and then go on about my merry way. I'm not losing eternal life, I'm not suddenly confronted with the meaninglessness of our species, nor are my most cherished fairytales being taken away. I'm just learning, and I will continue to learn until my brain stops working.
Granted, this is easier for me because I live in a wealthy country, and because I'm healthy, and because I've got a steady source of income to provide me with food and clothing and everything else I need to survive. Yes, I have ◊◊◊◊◊◊ job that I hate going to, and yes, I haven't yet made it as a writer, but that's life.
Some kid growing up in Somalia without the comforts you and I take for granted, would have a much harder time embracing this mindset because his/her existence is one of constant misery and strife. Guess what, that's life too. But religion provides an alternative to that reality, it gives people hope that the pain won't last forever, and THAT'S why it's so powerful. THAT'S why people cling to it so blindly. THAT'S why it's so easily abused.
See the difference? Moving on...
"I have no use for religious fanatics of any variety, and certainly deplore the cruelties of things like the Crusades and the Inquisition, just as I deplore the meanness and stupidity of those people at Abu Gharib."
Ya know what, Ralph? Everybody says that, but that doesn't stop them from embracing their own crusades. Right now, in this country, we've got elected officials trying to force their beliefs on everybody else by doing things like putting the ten commandments up outside a government building, or outlawing gay marriages, or putting the kybosh on stem cell research, or trying to outlaw abortion.
Some might say that these are moral issues, but where do said morals come from? The answer is largely religious fanaticism. Lemme' tell ya something, the "sanctity of human life" argument doesn't sway me one little bit. We're not that great, Ralph. We've overpopulated the global ecosystem at the expense of other species, we've poisoned ourselves and this (God given?) planet, we're constantly destroying one another for coveted resources, and we make no bones about genocide in the name of what's "right". Yet, we have the audacity to cloak these things in the banner of morality, when, in fact, we do them for the basest reason of all: self-preservation.
And I'll tell you another thing, THIS is the nature of the world your God created. Whether you're looking at us, or the animal kingdom as a whole, we do what we do for ourselves. We may justify it with deities, or politics, or liberation- but the real motivation never changes.
Now, whenever I spout off the above little rant, I'm often countered with the accusation that I'm immoral- that, without a set of rules from a higher power, I would kill and rape and steal without regard for those I hurt. That's as insulting as it is arrogant.
I don't kill people because I have no need to kill people, no desire to kill people. Perhaps if I was that Somalian kid I mentioned earlier, I would. But, at this point in time, I have it good. By the same token, I don't rape or steal because I don't need to, and because I don't want that done to me. There are certain evolutionary principles that dictate order among co-existing individuals and co-existing species, and- while we humans have seen fit to break most of those principles- we're still bound by them, and we enforce societal parameters to insure as much.
That's a broad outlook, so let's narrow it down and use ME as an example. I'm a total ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ on my website. Why? Because I can be, and because the way I tell my stories is amusing to my targeted audience, and because I enjoy doing it.
In real life though, I try never to be cruel or vicious to anyone. I try to treat other people how I like to be treated, and I consciously labor NOT to be predatory. I've never hit a women nor a child, I've never committed rape nor murder, I've never abused an animal, (the cat story is a total exaggeration), I don't do drugs, I don't drink and drive, [anymore], I don't cheat on my taxes, and I don't force my beliefs on anyone who didn't ask first.
Why do I live like that? Knowing I have the intelligence to get away with, say, stealing from my company if I wanted? Because I choose to, and because that's the best way for me- in my situation- to forge a satisfying existence. I enjoy teaching people, I enjoy making them smile, making them laugh, making them happy- but not because I fear I'll go to Hell if I don't.
I don't believe in good or evil because they're concepts based on individual perspective, (a point I elaborated on in my "Why I'm an Atheist" post), but I DO believe in harmony and chaos, and I choose harmony- for the most part- because chaos hurts not only me, but also those I need to continue being me.
The best reason to be "moral", isn't because a supernatural father figure deems it so. No, the best reason to be "moral" is that it's the only way we can continue to help ourselves and each other.
It's as simple as that. If you need religion to make it true, well, so be it. But religion carries with it a host of varying dogmas that nobody can agree on, and that hurts the cause of harmony. Sure, a lot of "good" has been done in the name of Christ, or Allah, or Aphrodite- but the pitfalls far outweigh the benefits.
What you call "religious fanaticism", I call the status quo taken just beyond the widely acceptable. We didn't think twice about slaughtering the American Indians who owned this country before we did. Why? Because they were "dirt worshipping heathens", and, more depressingly, they were simply in our way.
Moving on...
"Humans are capable of great depths of depravity as well as great heights of enlightenment."
Very true, but it seems to me that religion falls under the first category, while science falls under the latter. The last hundred years have seen a greater expansion of human "enlightenment" than all our previous millennia on this planet. We've gone to the moon, we've cured countless diseases, we've helped unite all peoples through technology, and we've even mapped the human genome, (thus furthering our understanding of God's design- from your perspective).
We didn't accomplish these things through religion, (which is stagnant). We accomplished them through science, (which is ever-changing, ever-expanding, and self-correcting). Does science have all the answers? HELL NO!!! But then, science is comfortable saying, "I don't know." Science doesn't make up supernatural explanations for things that are beyond it. Science simply accepts its limitations, and then works to overcome them.
I don't know whether or not you have children, but, let's say you have a daughter... If she gets hurt in a car accident, where're ya gonna take her? To church, where Jesus can work a miracle? Or to the hospital, where medical technology can stop her from bleeding to death? I'm guessing you're gonna take her to the hospital, because- despite whatever stock you've invested in a deity- you KNOW science works, while you can only have faith that religion will pull her through.
Granted, you might go immediately to the hospital chapel and start praying, but prayer isn't what's gonna save your little girl. Applied surgical knowledge is.
An easy counterpoint to this is, (and I'm paraphrasing here), "God helps those who help themselves." Well, if that's the case, what do we need him for?
Man, ◊◊◊◊ God! If he's out there, we'll find him eventually, but he's not doing all that much down here on earth. An all powerful deity doesn't need his own worshippers' technology to take care of things. He could do it himself, and with far less hub bub.
Again, moving on...
"It all depends on the inner nature, no matter what religion- or lack of any- one professes."
Uh huh... Yeah, well, I'm not exactly sure what you were trying to say with this carbon copy brand of hippie spiritual nonsense, but, our "inner nature" is self-preservation. Remember that the next time some random drunk throws a punch at your head, or the next time you walk into a convenience store where a criminal has the clerk at gunpoint, or the next time you take shrapnel from a fundamentalist setting off a bomb in an abortion clinic.
I know I'm being hard on you, Pastor, but there's a reason for it, and I'm getting to that now. You concluded with:
"Christianity at least recognizes a God of love, who bids us love one another. Can't go wrong with that. We just need to do it."
Dude, what the hell kinda communion wine are you drinking?!? Christianity is based on the Judeo-Christian bible, which is full of loveless acts carried out in God's name. If you want me to stoop to quoting scriptures, I will. In fact, I'll ruin your ◊◊◊◊ with The Word. I didn't come to think the way I do by being ignorant; I came to think the way I do because I was desperate for salvation, hungry for salvation, and this is where I ended up through genuine searching.
And another thing, you "can't go wrong with that"?!? Oh, really?!? Well then, I guess neither current events nor antiquity taught you anything, since proponents of the supernatural have been "going wrong with that" for the tenure of human history. I can cite examples of that too, if needs must.
I'm sure you're quite the theologian, but- like so many- you read what you WANT to read, interpret what you WANT to interpret, and I understand that need.
By his own decree, yours is a vengeful and jealous God, and the reason my mom probably emailed you in the first place, was because I quoted her a passage from Isaiah in which God flat out SAID he created all things, including evil. Loving superbeings don't create evil.
Regardless, I've just wasted an entire hour of a Saturday night I could've otherwise spent hanging out with my buddies, so I'll probably post this composition on my website. Like I said, I don't consider this dialog a hatemail, but you sure have employed the requisite rhetoric. Don't worry, I'll also post our previous correspondences to put things in the proper context.
If you don't reply, well, I'll understand. No hard feelings. But, if you do, don't bore me with the usual drivel. Honestly, Ralph, I've heard it all before. Don't start out with, "You seem like a very angry young man.", or, "I see your mind is already made up, so there's no need for me to respond."
You're not a dumbass, Ralph. I gather that from the way you write. But, neither am I, so please extend to me the same courtesy I've extended to you. My rebuttal was point by point... address it as such, ADDRESS THE ARGUMENTS!!! Don't try to discredit me with a personal attack, because, not only will you lose, you'll come off as a coward. And don't quote scripture either, for that holds no weight with me or most of the people who read my site. The present version of the bible contradicts itself constantly, and I can cite those contradictions- chapter and verse- with the same prowess that an Old West gunslinger would've demonstrated when drawing his pistol.
The ball's in your court, my friend. You're dealing with the wolves now, (not the sheep), so don't lob up a meatball. Trust me, I'll knock it outta the park....
-Mike
P.S. Just to clarify, any response you send (along with your previous ones) will appear exactly as you wrote it.
***
That's how I left it. It's been ten days now, and no reponse, but I have a feeling that I haven't heard the last from Ralph. He might be putting his ducks in a row to wage an impressive counter-offensive, (which is my sincerest hope), or he might have had enough. We'll see.
(from http://michaeldescado.tripod.com)
The story tells itself, so no more prologue is needed except to say that this is a perfect example of faith-based thinking versus fact-based thinking. Enjoy, consider, and even join in if you want. Minor changes have been made for spelling, grammar, and syntax.
Last week, out of the blue, I got the following email:
Hey, Mike,
Your Mom sikked me on you! I was her pastor when she was a skinny little teenager, and I'm sure she as hold you about me. She asked me to check out your website and make contact with you, and- ever the obedient servant- I have.
Now, having fulfilled my promise, you may choose to ignore me, and all that follows, and erase this message forever from your memory.
First, your website. I can only get glances at it, since- for some reason- once it loads, it promptly kicks me off to the Tripod directory. I've trying going around the barn by logging in to Tripod, then find your site, to no avail. So, all I have seen is the titles of your essays, and your photo eating a urine sickle. Okay! At least I picked up your email address.
You presently reside in one of my favorite cities. I grew up on northwestern South Carolina, and Asheville was a favorite place for summer outings. For nearly seven years I pastored a country church in Greenville, TN, just over the North Carolina/Tennessee line about 50 miles from Asheville. My wife and I went down frequently, among other things to grocery shop at a lower sales tax rate. So, I know your town quite well.
Anyway, Mom says you have biblical-theological questions, and I humbly offer my services as your answer man. I assure you that I am no fundamentalist. I was classically trained and steeped in the though of the whole Church without regard to denominational bias. A fifth-century French monk named Vincent of Lerins once said of the true Catholic, (whole church, not Roman necessarily) faith, "What has been believed everywhere, always, and by all." That's my position. Christian first, Lutheran second. I also hold an earned doctorate from the Graduate Theological Foundation at Notre Dame in sacramental theology. So, I do think I know my stuff.
Now that I have established my credentials, the ball is in your court. I am here for you if you wish to have any sort of dialog. If you don't, no hard feelings. I never try to persuade, only offer.
Your mom is coming to visit Rose (my wife) and myself on June 23, and I can tell her honestly I contacted you.
Peace,
Pastor Ralph Heller
***
I know what you're thinking, "Mike's about to hand this guy his own ass." Well, I didn't, though there was certainly the opportunity. For one thing, nobody "sikkes" anything on me- unless it's a pitbull, and said pitbull might get its ◊◊◊◊ ruined too. There was also the assumption, (no doubt fostered by my mother), that I was looking for religious answers, and that Ralph's credentials would qualify him to impart such answers.
Uh huh...
Not to mention that quote from Vincent of Lerins which insinuates that- beneath the petty details people disagree on- there's one subset of universal truths that all Christians adhere to.
Uh huh...
Alas, family factors kept me from unloading on this guy, namely because I have to be very, very careful when dealing with my mother and her friends. Without putting too fine a point on it, orchestrating peace with my parents supercedes pride, and my reply went something like this:
Ralph,
Yeah, I've been meaning to call Mom back. Hopefully, I'll get to it tonight. That's odd about the website, though you're not the first person that's complained about the tripod banners. I get about a hundred hits a day, compared to about 2 or 3 complaints of that nature each month or so, thus, I assume it's an isolated issue.
Please give it a shot again. (Try opening http://michaeldescado.tripod.com in one window, then open a second and go to http://michaeldescado.tripod.com)
As for my theological questions, well, I honestly don't have any. I pose questions to Mom from time to time in an attempt to get her to think critically and objectively about her "beliefs", but I don't have any lingering questions myself. The fact that she solicited your expertise might mean that I'm starting to get through to her- but, I highly doubt it.
If you can ever get on my site, my opinions on religion are thoroughly outlined in the "Not meant to be funny, but..." section. Basically, I'm an atheist, a scientist, and a skeptic. I harbor no beliefs of any kind that involve the supernatural. The things I DO put stock in, are those supported by empirical evidence. My beliefs can and do change with the evidence.
Hope that helps,
-Mike
***
The next day, I got this:
Mike,
Thanks for your reply. I will re-check your web site. Hey, it's not surprising that your Mom has a fundamentalist streak. I am quite aware of that. Not surprising down in that part of the world. (It's been 34 years since I left there, but some things you don't forget.) I nearly went crazy with the Baptists and other fundamentalists. People of whatever religious persuasion cannot but help picking up a lot of that garbage. She does call me from time to time and I endeavor to help her clarify her thinking. She is a very dear friend, but does- shall I say- sometimes comes on strong?
Anyway, we understand each other. I'll take an honest atheist any day over a hypocritical Christian! I won't bother you again, but if you ever want to dialog in my area of expertise, I'm here. By the way, there are a lot of things that are very true, but not empirically provable. The Greek of the New Testament has a word for it: Mysterion. Things we apprehend by faith though we cannot prove them. "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen," Hebrews 11:1.
Best wishes,
Pastor Ralph Heller
***
Ironically, Pastor Heller and I would've probably never spoken again if he hadn't ended his email with that verse from Hebrews. I HATE that verse! It's used all the time to falsely rationalize belief in nonsense. I don't have my actual reply to Ralph because I didn't save it, but it was short and to the point, but still very polite by my standards. The gist of it was that Hebrews 11:1, and passages like it, were the cause of horrible atrocities throughout human history. And that, again, ANY action can be justified when the so called evidence is nothing more than faith. I think I cited the Crusades and the 911 tragedy as examples.
This was his response:
Mike,
Anything can be misused. It's not the use, but the abuse. I have no use for religious fanatics of any variety, and certainly deplore the cruelties of things like the Crusades and the Inquisition, just as I deplore the meanness and stupidity of those people at Abu Gharib. Humans are capable of great depths of depravity, as well as great heights of enlightenment. It all depends on the inner nature, no matter what religion- or lack of any- one professes. Christianity, at least, recognizes a God of love, who bids us love one another. Can't go wrong with that. We just need to do it.
RH
***
I'd had enough. I could tell he was a nice man, a smart man, an educated man- but he picked the wrong guy on the wrong night of the week, (Saturday). Abandoning a small get-together a friend of mine was having, I stole off alone to the back office, poured myself a drink, and spent the next hour or so stabbing out the following on my laptop:
Ralph,
Now, I'm pretty much a nobody in the writing world. None of my books have been published, and- while my website seems to be providing more exposure than my FREAKING AGENT- I have no illusions about my opinions getting "out there". Still, I get a fair amount of hatemail from Christians, and I respond to each and every one of them, (I've even posted a few of the funnier responses on the site).
Our brief dialog back and forth BY NO MEANS falls under the category of hatemail, but some of your arguments are very, very contrived, and that's why I'll continue to reply. I certainly don't wanna bore/bother/offend you, and I don't ever want you to think that you're doing that to me. I LOVE talking to people; I LOVE seeing other people's points of view- it's one of the main ways I learn about the world.
As such, lemme' go point by point on a couple of things.
You wrote: "Anything can be misused. It's not the use, but the abuse."
While true, this statement is a broad and frequently cited justification for religion which I don't agree with. Yes, I suppose "anything" can be misused, but faith based belief structures are FAR more vulnerable to said abuses than fact based ones. Why? Because of emotion.
You see, proponents of the supernatural get to live in a world where ANYTHING is possible, and thus, the hardships of the human condition are escapable. Born with a debilitating birth defect? No problem, Jesus can heal you. And even if he doesn't, you'll have a perfect spiritual body in the afterlife. Lose a son on the battlefield? No problem, you'll get to see your courageous boy again in Valhalla. Poor? Starving? Homeless? No problem, Karma will see to it that you get a better shot next reincarnation. Gonna die? No problem, death is not the end.
Sounds pretty great, huh? Yep. That's why it's such an easy sale. There are so many religions in the world, and so many ways to interpret each of them, that nobody ever has to be left out. In this country, the generations coming up are a lot more educated and a lot less superstitious than the ones before, but that's not a problem either, as a whole host of new dogmas have sprung up to accommodate the more rational believer.
Where we once had prophets predicting the future by spilling the intestines of an animal, we now have psychics like John Edwards and Silva Brown, who can do the same things without seeming hokey or medieval. Where we once used meridians and charkas to magically manipulate chi, (and still do), we now have homeopathic remedies that can trump medical science if only you eat this particular root, or wear this particular kind of magnetic bracelet on your wrist. Where we once had deities, we now have extraterrestrials.
None of these things require critical thinking skills to accept, none of these things require years of hard science study to understand. All you have to do is believe, and the world becomes a much better place- a place of hope and wonder and miracles.
Who WOULDN'T wanna live in such a world?!? I know I would, which is why it took me so long to face my own doubts. I was a Christian for all of my childhood and adolescent years, and I spent most of my adulthood as an agnostic, (I couldn't blindly accept the inherent contradictions and blatant mythology of religion, but I needed to believe that SOMETHING was out there). You can read more about this personal journey in the article, "Why I'm an Atheist", but the point is, there came a time when I had to stop needing "truth", and start relying on "fact".
The loss of my faith was a disparaging ordeal, but I wasn't able to let it go because I'm tough or brave or jaded. I was able to let it go because I simply didn't have a choice. As it stands, I can no more "choose" to genuinely believe in God, then you could "choose" to genuinely believe in Santa Clause, or Thor, or fire-breathing dragons.
(Interesting tidbit on the latter one: I recently saw a movie called "Reign of Fire" with Mathew Machonnehey, and that film put a biological spin on the existence of fire-breathing dragons, where they could spit a flammable nitrogen based venom that ignited when exposed to open air. Cool, huh? Total ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ if you know anything about exothermic chemical reactions, but I thought it was admirable that the producers went the scientific route.)
Anyway, I'm getting WAY off track here, so lemme' try and "Reign" things in, (pardon the pun)...
Again, religion is a great and comforting perspective, and so, emotion plays heavily into it. If I was to say to you, "Ralph, everything you've devoted your life's study to is mythology, and its only value is purely anthropological." -How would that make you feel? Would you get angry? Would you laugh? Would you dismiss me as a stupid kid that doesn't know enough about life to tell you anything? Or would you merely pity me as a lost soul?
Maybe you'd do all of that, maybe you'd do none of it, but most people will fight to defend their beliefs, going so far as to kill any who dare question them.
Now, let's turn the tables. If you came up to me and said, "Mike, the forces of molecular attraction are not valid.", or, "Mike, evolution never happened, and it's not happening now.", or, "Mike, Carbon 14 dating is hogwash.", would I react the same way? Realistically, yes, because I have tons empirical data on my side. But, theoretically, I would abandon ANY of those principles in a heartbeat if you could provide sufficient evidence that I was wrong. No emotion, no fight, no deaths- I would simply go with the facts. That's just how I think, and more, I don't have anything to lose. There's no emotional attachment to my view of the universe because my ultimate salvation is not at stake.
This is my life: here, right now, in this house, typing on this laptop. One day I will die, and that'll be the end of me. I've accepted that, so I don't feel the need to tenaciously hold on to something like the Big Bang theory. If contradictory evidence pops up, (which it has), I incorporate the new stuff, smile at the wonders of human intellect, and then go on about my merry way. I'm not losing eternal life, I'm not suddenly confronted with the meaninglessness of our species, nor are my most cherished fairytales being taken away. I'm just learning, and I will continue to learn until my brain stops working.
Granted, this is easier for me because I live in a wealthy country, and because I'm healthy, and because I've got a steady source of income to provide me with food and clothing and everything else I need to survive. Yes, I have ◊◊◊◊◊◊ job that I hate going to, and yes, I haven't yet made it as a writer, but that's life.
Some kid growing up in Somalia without the comforts you and I take for granted, would have a much harder time embracing this mindset because his/her existence is one of constant misery and strife. Guess what, that's life too. But religion provides an alternative to that reality, it gives people hope that the pain won't last forever, and THAT'S why it's so powerful. THAT'S why people cling to it so blindly. THAT'S why it's so easily abused.
See the difference? Moving on...
"I have no use for religious fanatics of any variety, and certainly deplore the cruelties of things like the Crusades and the Inquisition, just as I deplore the meanness and stupidity of those people at Abu Gharib."
Ya know what, Ralph? Everybody says that, but that doesn't stop them from embracing their own crusades. Right now, in this country, we've got elected officials trying to force their beliefs on everybody else by doing things like putting the ten commandments up outside a government building, or outlawing gay marriages, or putting the kybosh on stem cell research, or trying to outlaw abortion.
Some might say that these are moral issues, but where do said morals come from? The answer is largely religious fanaticism. Lemme' tell ya something, the "sanctity of human life" argument doesn't sway me one little bit. We're not that great, Ralph. We've overpopulated the global ecosystem at the expense of other species, we've poisoned ourselves and this (God given?) planet, we're constantly destroying one another for coveted resources, and we make no bones about genocide in the name of what's "right". Yet, we have the audacity to cloak these things in the banner of morality, when, in fact, we do them for the basest reason of all: self-preservation.
And I'll tell you another thing, THIS is the nature of the world your God created. Whether you're looking at us, or the animal kingdom as a whole, we do what we do for ourselves. We may justify it with deities, or politics, or liberation- but the real motivation never changes.
Now, whenever I spout off the above little rant, I'm often countered with the accusation that I'm immoral- that, without a set of rules from a higher power, I would kill and rape and steal without regard for those I hurt. That's as insulting as it is arrogant.
I don't kill people because I have no need to kill people, no desire to kill people. Perhaps if I was that Somalian kid I mentioned earlier, I would. But, at this point in time, I have it good. By the same token, I don't rape or steal because I don't need to, and because I don't want that done to me. There are certain evolutionary principles that dictate order among co-existing individuals and co-existing species, and- while we humans have seen fit to break most of those principles- we're still bound by them, and we enforce societal parameters to insure as much.
That's a broad outlook, so let's narrow it down and use ME as an example. I'm a total ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ on my website. Why? Because I can be, and because the way I tell my stories is amusing to my targeted audience, and because I enjoy doing it.
In real life though, I try never to be cruel or vicious to anyone. I try to treat other people how I like to be treated, and I consciously labor NOT to be predatory. I've never hit a women nor a child, I've never committed rape nor murder, I've never abused an animal, (the cat story is a total exaggeration), I don't do drugs, I don't drink and drive, [anymore], I don't cheat on my taxes, and I don't force my beliefs on anyone who didn't ask first.
Why do I live like that? Knowing I have the intelligence to get away with, say, stealing from my company if I wanted? Because I choose to, and because that's the best way for me- in my situation- to forge a satisfying existence. I enjoy teaching people, I enjoy making them smile, making them laugh, making them happy- but not because I fear I'll go to Hell if I don't.
I don't believe in good or evil because they're concepts based on individual perspective, (a point I elaborated on in my "Why I'm an Atheist" post), but I DO believe in harmony and chaos, and I choose harmony- for the most part- because chaos hurts not only me, but also those I need to continue being me.
The best reason to be "moral", isn't because a supernatural father figure deems it so. No, the best reason to be "moral" is that it's the only way we can continue to help ourselves and each other.
It's as simple as that. If you need religion to make it true, well, so be it. But religion carries with it a host of varying dogmas that nobody can agree on, and that hurts the cause of harmony. Sure, a lot of "good" has been done in the name of Christ, or Allah, or Aphrodite- but the pitfalls far outweigh the benefits.
What you call "religious fanaticism", I call the status quo taken just beyond the widely acceptable. We didn't think twice about slaughtering the American Indians who owned this country before we did. Why? Because they were "dirt worshipping heathens", and, more depressingly, they were simply in our way.
Moving on...
"Humans are capable of great depths of depravity as well as great heights of enlightenment."
Very true, but it seems to me that religion falls under the first category, while science falls under the latter. The last hundred years have seen a greater expansion of human "enlightenment" than all our previous millennia on this planet. We've gone to the moon, we've cured countless diseases, we've helped unite all peoples through technology, and we've even mapped the human genome, (thus furthering our understanding of God's design- from your perspective).
We didn't accomplish these things through religion, (which is stagnant). We accomplished them through science, (which is ever-changing, ever-expanding, and self-correcting). Does science have all the answers? HELL NO!!! But then, science is comfortable saying, "I don't know." Science doesn't make up supernatural explanations for things that are beyond it. Science simply accepts its limitations, and then works to overcome them.
I don't know whether or not you have children, but, let's say you have a daughter... If she gets hurt in a car accident, where're ya gonna take her? To church, where Jesus can work a miracle? Or to the hospital, where medical technology can stop her from bleeding to death? I'm guessing you're gonna take her to the hospital, because- despite whatever stock you've invested in a deity- you KNOW science works, while you can only have faith that religion will pull her through.
Granted, you might go immediately to the hospital chapel and start praying, but prayer isn't what's gonna save your little girl. Applied surgical knowledge is.
An easy counterpoint to this is, (and I'm paraphrasing here), "God helps those who help themselves." Well, if that's the case, what do we need him for?
Man, ◊◊◊◊ God! If he's out there, we'll find him eventually, but he's not doing all that much down here on earth. An all powerful deity doesn't need his own worshippers' technology to take care of things. He could do it himself, and with far less hub bub.
Again, moving on...
"It all depends on the inner nature, no matter what religion- or lack of any- one professes."
Uh huh... Yeah, well, I'm not exactly sure what you were trying to say with this carbon copy brand of hippie spiritual nonsense, but, our "inner nature" is self-preservation. Remember that the next time some random drunk throws a punch at your head, or the next time you walk into a convenience store where a criminal has the clerk at gunpoint, or the next time you take shrapnel from a fundamentalist setting off a bomb in an abortion clinic.
I know I'm being hard on you, Pastor, but there's a reason for it, and I'm getting to that now. You concluded with:
"Christianity at least recognizes a God of love, who bids us love one another. Can't go wrong with that. We just need to do it."
Dude, what the hell kinda communion wine are you drinking?!? Christianity is based on the Judeo-Christian bible, which is full of loveless acts carried out in God's name. If you want me to stoop to quoting scriptures, I will. In fact, I'll ruin your ◊◊◊◊ with The Word. I didn't come to think the way I do by being ignorant; I came to think the way I do because I was desperate for salvation, hungry for salvation, and this is where I ended up through genuine searching.
And another thing, you "can't go wrong with that"?!? Oh, really?!? Well then, I guess neither current events nor antiquity taught you anything, since proponents of the supernatural have been "going wrong with that" for the tenure of human history. I can cite examples of that too, if needs must.
I'm sure you're quite the theologian, but- like so many- you read what you WANT to read, interpret what you WANT to interpret, and I understand that need.
By his own decree, yours is a vengeful and jealous God, and the reason my mom probably emailed you in the first place, was because I quoted her a passage from Isaiah in which God flat out SAID he created all things, including evil. Loving superbeings don't create evil.
Regardless, I've just wasted an entire hour of a Saturday night I could've otherwise spent hanging out with my buddies, so I'll probably post this composition on my website. Like I said, I don't consider this dialog a hatemail, but you sure have employed the requisite rhetoric. Don't worry, I'll also post our previous correspondences to put things in the proper context.
If you don't reply, well, I'll understand. No hard feelings. But, if you do, don't bore me with the usual drivel. Honestly, Ralph, I've heard it all before. Don't start out with, "You seem like a very angry young man.", or, "I see your mind is already made up, so there's no need for me to respond."
You're not a dumbass, Ralph. I gather that from the way you write. But, neither am I, so please extend to me the same courtesy I've extended to you. My rebuttal was point by point... address it as such, ADDRESS THE ARGUMENTS!!! Don't try to discredit me with a personal attack, because, not only will you lose, you'll come off as a coward. And don't quote scripture either, for that holds no weight with me or most of the people who read my site. The present version of the bible contradicts itself constantly, and I can cite those contradictions- chapter and verse- with the same prowess that an Old West gunslinger would've demonstrated when drawing his pistol.
The ball's in your court, my friend. You're dealing with the wolves now, (not the sheep), so don't lob up a meatball. Trust me, I'll knock it outta the park....
-Mike
P.S. Just to clarify, any response you send (along with your previous ones) will appear exactly as you wrote it.
***
That's how I left it. It's been ten days now, and no reponse, but I have a feeling that I haven't heard the last from Ralph. He might be putting his ducks in a row to wage an impressive counter-offensive, (which is my sincerest hope), or he might have had enough. We'll see.
(from http://michaeldescado.tripod.com)
