Split Thread Skepticism and Vegetarianism

[ahhell]

What's up, doc? Something against carrots? Hmmm?

I'm sure I've told this story but, my sister is a nurse. Her first job as such was in a pediatrician's office, a child came in that had turned orange on account of all the carrots and carrot juice the parents had fed it.

 

[arthwollipot]

You're right, it is annoying when someone gets all preachy, judgemental and even confrontational.

Fortunately that's only a small minority of vegans.

 

[Chanakya]

I think "those vegans" would be pains in the butt regardless. Kinda like the people who feel it necessary to spam vegan recipe posts on social media with helpful advice about eating meat.

Agreed, there's some people that are just ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. You see them IRL, you see them online, you see a few of them right here in our little forum. People who latch on to some issue in order to give vent to their inner ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. These people aren't, for instance, pro-vegan ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊, or anti-vegan ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊, but merely ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. The veganism issue, whether the putative support for it, or the apparent opposition to it, is merely incidental.

That said, what I was speaking of is a bit different. It's when "virute", in quotes, is attempted to be clung on to beyond one's level of comfort. That sometimes does breed an irritating sanctimoniousness. Emphatically not just with things to do with diet, but on the other hand not excluding such either.

 

[Chanakya]

Except that you really can't rule out all animal suffering in your behaviour unless you choose not to partake in modern society at all. Vegans draw a line, but exactly where they draw the line is up to them.

If I'm at a conference or something and there's meat options and vegetarian options at the buffet, I will actively avoid the vegetarian options. After all, I can eat their food but they can't eat mine. Every serving I take from the vege table is a serving that a vegetarian can't have.

I expect the first paragraph, that you addressed to me, is, like the second, a joke? If so, cool. But just in case not, then that's as clear example of the Nirvana fallacy, and less an argument than, I'm sorry, a joke.

(eta: Like I said earlier, I'm not myself a vegan. But I do agree with their ethical argument --- even if I've not so far committed to it myself.)

 

[Chanakya]

I'm sure I've told this story but, my sister is a nurse. Her first job as such was in a pediatrician's office, a child came in that had turned orange on account of all the carrots and carrot juice the parents had fed it.

Haha, seriously? I mean, I've heard that joke, sure, but how you relate this makes it seem like it actually happened. If that's actually the case, then that's hilarious! And good to know, that such a thing is actually possible.

 

[Chanakya]

Haha, seriously? I mean, I've heard that joke, sure, but how you relate this makes it seem like it actually happened. If that's actually the case, then that's hilarious! And good to know, that such a thing is actually possible. (eta: Unless you're simply repeating that old joke with elaborate would-be personal details thrown in for additional effect?)

 

[SteveAitch]

Haha, seriously? I mean, I've heard that joke, sure, but how you relate this makes it seem like it actually happened. If that's actually the case, then that's hilarious! And good to know, that such a thing is actually possible.

Slightly OT, but there are stories of a guy who for some reason (giving up smoking?) chewed on bits of old film and had skin that changed to a bluish(?) colour in strong sunlight.

Right back to the main plot...

 

[Chanakya]

Slightly OT, but there are stories of a guy who for some reason (giving up smoking?) chewed on bits of old film and had skin that changed to a bluish(?) colour in strong sunlight.

Right back to the main plot...

Ehh, right, joke, got it. Just, the way ahhell related the joke, and given it was repetition of a reference already made in this thread (and so not half as funny the second time around), I thought, maybe... Ah, okay, call me slow, then, for (half) taking that joke literally!

 

[SteveAitch]

Ehh, right, joke, got it. Just, the way ahhell related the joke, and given it was repetition of a reference already made in this thread (and so not half as funny the second time around), I thought, maybe... Ah, okay, call me slow, then, for (half) taking that joke literally!

It's a known condition - the carrot related one at least.

 

[icerat]

Hmm. Interesting thread. I'm what I've decided to call a "pragmatic vegan", thoughI'm open to better suggestions. My basic life philosophy is one of striving for harm minimisation. Many things of course, minimise harm in one area and increase it in another, so it's a balancing trick of course ... and like everything else, subject to motivated reasoning.

In practise it means I try to minimise the harm I cause in the world. With regards to eating animal products, in today's world it's a massive harm on multiple vectors - incl ethical, health, economic, environment - so stopping eating meat is really a no brainer. That said, last year I was on a long-haul flight, they screwed up my (vegan) meal order. I've researched and found any uneaten meals would just be thrown away ... and I'd eventually need to get calories somewhere else. Easy decision, I ate the chicken and rice. To do otherwise would cause more harm.

Similiar I have "rescue chickens". These are chickens that were otherwise going to be killed. I've taken them in, housed them, feed them, they have a great life. They lay eggs. So I eat them. To waste them would do more harm. I won't buy commercial eggs and I avoid whenever possible products with egg in them. Same with dairy.

In theory harm minimisation extends beyond living beings, but it's generally universal that all living things want to continue living, so I'd prefer to honour that when possible. This of course does extend to plants, but reality is I have to eat something, so what causes the least overall harm? Hopefully one day we'll have Star Trek replicators and I can skip killing the plants (and everything else that dies in their production as food)

In the west today it's ridiculously easy to be vegetarian or vegan. So I am.

 

[EHocking]

It's a known condition - the carrot related one at least.

Which I’m sure prompted this cartoon.

How vegetarians are born (they meant to say conceived).

 

[arthwollipot]

I expect the first paragraph, that you addressed to me, is, like the second, a joke? If so, cool. But just in case not, then that's as clear example of the Nirvana fallacy, and less an argument than, I'm sorry, a joke.

(eta: Like I said earlier, I'm not myself a vegan. But I do agree with their ethical argument --- even if I've not so far committed to it myself.)

None of what I said is a joke.

 

[The Don]

Except that you really can't rule out all animal suffering in your behaviour unless you choose not to partake in modern society at all. Vegans draw a line, but exactly where they draw the line is up to them.

If I'm at a conference or something and there's meat options and vegetarian options at the buffet, I will actively avoid the vegetarian options. After all, I can eat their food but they can't eat mine. Every serving I take from the vege table is a serving that a vegetarian can't have.

That's very kind of you.

This causes me a bit of a dilemma. While I'm happy to have vegetarian food left, if more people had some then it would show greater demand (so next time there are n+1 vegetarian/vegan alternatives) and some people might try it for the first time.

 

[zooterkin]

It's a known condition - the carrot related one at least.

As is the blue skin from ingesting silver compounds. https://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/argyria-overview

 

[varwoche]

There does also seem to be a distinction between merely adopting a plant based diet and becoming vegan.

I cannot be vegan, regardless of my diet, because I own a couple of pairs of leather shoes which I'm not going to dispose of because they're not going to wear out any time soon and a number of merino wool base layers that also have many years of wear left in them.

The Official Rules for Veganism don't require you to discard belongings acquired prior to going vegan.

 

[Chanakya]

It's a known condition - the carrot related one at least.

As is the blue skin from ingesting silver compounds. https://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/argyria-overview

Oh wow. So that's actually a thing, is it. Both those.

Cool, good to know. I had no idea.

 

[Chanakya]

None of what I said is a joke.

Oh, seriously? Well then, in that case, like I spelled out, the argument implied in your initial paragraph, that was addressed to me, was completely wrong. And, coming from you, who are no stranger to either critical thinking in general or to the Nirvana Fallacy in particular, I'm afraid it's actually a joke, even if you hadn't intended it as such.

The second paragraph also looks completely utterly wrong, but yeah, I'm not going to go to town analyzing a throwaway comment to someone else.

 

[Chanakya]

Hmm. Interesting thread. I'm what I've decided to call a "pragmatic vegan", thoughI'm open to better suggestions. My basic life philosophy is one of striving for harm minimisation. Many things of course, minimise harm in one area and increase it in another, so it's a balancing trick of course ... and like everything else, subject to motivated reasoning.

In practise it means I try to minimise the harm I cause in the world. With regards to eating animal products, in today's world it's a massive harm on multiple vectors - incl ethical, health, economic, environment - so stopping eating meat is really a no brainer. That said, last year I was on a long-haul flight, they screwed up my (vegan) meal order. I've researched and found any uneaten meals would just be thrown away ... and I'd eventually need to get calories somewhere else. Easy decision, I ate the chicken and rice. To do otherwise would cause more harm.

Similiar I have "rescue chickens". These are chickens that were otherwise going to be killed. I've taken them in, housed them, feed them, they have a great life. They lay eggs. So I eat them. To waste them would do more harm. I won't buy commercial eggs and I avoid whenever possible products with egg in them. Same with dairy.

In theory harm minimisation extends beyond living beings, but it's generally universal that all living things want to continue living, so I'd prefer to honour that when possible. This of course does extend to plants, but reality is I have to eat something, so what causes the least overall harm? Hopefully one day we'll have Star Trek replicators and I can skip killing the plants (and everything else that dies in their production as food)

In the west today it's ridiculously easy to be vegetarian or vegan. So I am.

Specifically as far as the rescue chickens: Very cool. Speaking for myself, I can find no ethical reason to refrain from eating eggs on those terms. You're not breeding them for this, but actually giving chickens that would otherwise have a hard life, as good a life as any chicken or hen can have (like you say). And might those eggs, if hatched, make new chicken and hens? Sure, but they aren't born yet, so that's like the abortion issue, that is to say a non-issue.

Although as I type this, as I'm in the process of verbalizing/textualizing my full agreement with your eggs thing, just now this one ...quibble, comes to mind. How much of a maternal instinct do hens have? I've no clue about that. When a hen has laid an egg, does she have the usual maternal instincts about that egg itself, as opposed to the chick after it has hatched? If so, then keeping rescue chicks is very cool, but eating their eggs not so much. But if they don't have much of a maternal instinct about eggs, then all good.

(That's a question I'm actually interested in. If the answer is no, as far as their maternal instincts, then I'm happy to eat eggs on those terms. That is, I don't see myself raising rescue hens, chicken, whatever, but I'd be happy to pay considerably premium prices for eggs from such an enterprise, that raises hens on strictly those terms, either for the eggs themselves directly, or else by contributing to such enterprise/s and then becoming one of the people who they send those eggs to. But that's assuming the answer to the question about maternal instinct for eggs is a No.)

 

[catsmate]

I'd like a link to the discussion about vegetarianism, actually. I can't believe that there would be anything other than a tiny minority of people who were very strongly and angrily against vegetarianism.

In some countries it's a political thing, linked to the usual macho, right-wing, ACC denialist nonsense

 

[Darat]

Specifically as far as the rescue chickens: Very cool. Speaking for myself, I can find no ethical reason to refrain from eating eggs on those terms. You're not breeding them for this, but actually giving chickens that would otherwise have a hard life, as good a life as any chicken or hen can have (like you say). And might those eggs, if hatched, make new chicken and hens? Sure, but they aren't born yet, so that's like the abortion issue, that is to say a non-issue.

Although as I type this, as I'm in the process of verbalizing/textualizing my full agreement with your eggs thing, just now this one ...quibble, comes to mind. How much of a maternal instinct do hens have? I've no clue about that. When a hen has laid an egg, does she have the usual maternal instincts about that egg itself, as opposed to the chick after it has hatched? If so, then keeping rescue chicks is very cool, but eating their eggs not so much. But if they don't have much of a maternal instinct about eggs, then all good.

(That's a question I'm actually interested in. If the answer is no, as far as their maternal instincts, then I'm happy to eat eggs on those terms. That is, I don't see myself raising rescue hens, chicken, whatever, but I'd be happy to pay considerably premium prices for eggs from such an enterprise, that raises hens on strictly those terms, either for the eggs themselves directly, or else by contributing to such enterprise/s and then becoming one of the people who they send those eggs to. But that's assuming the answer to the question about maternal instinct for eggs is a No.)

Some modern breeds that are well looked after will produce unfertilised eggs all year round, as many as one every other day, if you didn’t remove them they’d soon be roosting on a mountain of eggs!