The "Nakba" Myth

[Mycroft]

In fairness generations of never-ending warfare is normal in many parts of the world. Europe for example.

In fairness to who?

This conflict goes on and on largely because Palestinian-Arabs are not given any options other than being perpetual victims/refugees. Why is it that Palestinians can live and work in other Arab lands such as Kuwait or the United Arab Emirates for generations but can never hope to be a citizen or even to own property there? Why is it that a Palestinian from Gaza can become a citizen of the United States or Canada but can't become a citizen of Egypt or Jordan where they share the same language and culture?

The answer? Because showing normal human compassion on these people and giving them the free choice of ending the conflict and getting on with their lives or continuing to live in poverty and violence wouldn't give the Arab world the result they want.

 

[Thunder]

In fairness to who?

Why is it that Palestinians can live and work in other Arab lands such as Kuwait or the United Arab Emirates for generations but can never hope to be a citizen or even to own property there? Why is it that a Palestinian from Gaza can become a citizen of the United States or Canada but can't become a citizen of Egypt or Jordan where they share the same language and culture?

because Palestinian refugees are political pawns in a stupid game.

having poor Palestinian refugees wallowing in their misery, is very good for Arab propaganda.

they are a big fat Ace, that they do not want to give up.

its smart, is sneaky, but its very inhumane.

fortunately for them, the Palestinians seem willing to accept their misery and fate as political pawns. this is something I have not understood. I assume Palestinians who WANT to become full-citizens of the countries where they reside, are told to shut the **** up.

 

[Thunder]

And comparing the Nakba to the Holocaust isn't?

some right-wing Jews feel that NO event can be compared to the Holocaust. The event has achieved a state of Holyness that no other act of even mass genocide can touch.

 

[geni]

This conflict goes on and on largely because Palestinian-Arabs are not given any options other than being perpetual victims/refugees. Why is it that Palestinians can live and work in other Arab lands such as Kuwait or the United Arab Emirates for generations but can never hope to be a citizen or even to own property there?

Because the economy in many of the Emirates is reliant of having a cheap workforce with no rights.

Why is it that a Palestinian from Gaza can become a citizen of the United States or Canada but can't become a citizen of Egypt or Jordan where they share the same language and culture?

Because has enough issues with islamic radicals without risking any more of them turning up.

The answer? Because showing normal human compassion on these people and giving them the free choice of ending the conflict and getting on with their lives or continuing to live in poverty and violence wouldn't give the Arab world the result they want.

How many of those iraqi refugees in jordan have gained Jordanian citizenship?

 

[Virus]

In fairness to who?

Why is it that Palestinians can live and work in other Arab lands such as Kuwait or the United Arab Emirates...

Actually I don't think they can live in Kuwait. The Emir kicked them all out after the Gulf War because the PLO supported Saddam Hussein and the Emir feared they were a fifth column.

 

[bit_pattern]

I love the smell of extreme nationalist revisionism in the morning!

 

[Pardalis]

some right-wing Jews feel that NO event can be compared to the Holocaust. The event has achieved a state of Holyness that no other act of even mass genocide can touch.

Well it is rather unique event. Industrialized slaughter on that massive scale hasn't happened alot.

The Nakba surely doesn't compare to it in any way shape or form.

What you're doing is using the Holocaust for emotional appeal, for a cheap argument.

 

[Skeptic]

I love the smell of extreme nationalist revisionism in the morning!

For someone who's against extreme nationalism, it's interesting you don't have anything to say -- let alone any condemnation -- of the repeated Arab attempts to wipe out Israel, or Arafat's repeated declarations that his real goal is Israel's destruction, the Oslo "peace" accords being just part of the well-known "staged plan" to achieve that.

It's only Jews trying to survive that is "extreme nationalism", isn't it?

 

[bit_pattern]

Arafat would never have been anything more than a bit-player thug if Israel hadn't have legitimised him their "partner in peace", and I don't think you'll ever find an example of me supporting him and his corrupt Fatah cronies. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if there were anyone defending Arafat against all and every criticism to the degree that you guys do for Israel then I'd be giving them an equal amount of stick. But there's not. There is nobody (at least that I've noticed) defending the right of the Arab states to launch unprovoked attacks against Israel - despite your best efforts to cast anybody who questions your revisionism as doing such. and, this puerile attempts to portray Israel as being under existential threat would be comical if it weren't for the fact that so many people here seem to swallow that line uncritically. Israel hasn't been under any real threat since the Yom Kippur war and peace with Egypt, because a state armed with 300 nukes will NEVER be under existential threat from a couple of tin-pot militia's. it's just another attempt to cast Israel as the victim in order to justify the venal way it has treated the civilian populations it captured in '67.

 

[Virus]

Who should Israel have legitimized as their partner for peace? I hope I never see you complaining that Israel won't recognize Hamas as a peace partner, since you think recognizing the PLO was a bad call.

 

[Mycroft]

Who should Israel have legitimized as their partner for peace? I hope I never see you complaining that Israel won't recognize Hamas as a peace partner, since you think recognizing the PLO was a bad call.

It's just more of the damned no matter what they do the left pushes.

Of course, inherent with the assertion that Israel was wrong to recognize the PLO as representative of the Palestinian people is the recognition that the PLO is a problem in achieving peace, but you won't see that acknowledged. That would take some blame away from Israel.

 

[bit_pattern]

Who should Israel have legitimized as their partner for peace?

How about the people Israel was negotiation with in Madrid, like Haydar Abd al-Shafi, for starters? The PLO wasn't involved in the Madrid negotiations but Israel railroaded the Palestinian delegation by opening up back channel negotiations with Arafat, delegitimising moderates like Dr. al-Shafi and installing the old despot Arafat as the leader of the Palestinian movement, a subserviant lackey who was prepared to accept the joke of an agreement that was Oslo, which directly led to to rise of Hamas and other Islamist groups as the people became disillusioned with the PLO, both their corrupt cronyism and their willingness to roll-over for Israel and accept the unacceptable by legitimising the occupation. Israel needed a lackey it could easily demonise (quite rightly so) as a terrorist when the accords inevitably fell apart. Israel has never been interested in a genuine peace with Palestine, the last thing in the world they have ever wanted is a genuine Arab state within Ersatz Yisrael.

I hope I never see you complaining that Israel won't recognize Hamas as a peace partner, since you think recognizing the PLO was a bad call.

Israel should be talking to Hamas, no doubt about it, if they are serious about peace that is, and not simply in keeping Gaza as the worlds largest open-air prison, which is doubtful considering their track record in these matters.

 

[Skeptic]

Arafat would never have been anything more than a bit-player thug if Israel hadn't have legitimised him their "partner in peace"

Of course, as long as Israel refused to recognize Arafat's PLO, well, that just proved how evil Israel is and how it doesn't want peace.

Now that it recognized the PLO and the PLO continued with its "staged plan" for Israel's destruction, apparently that, too, is Israel's fault.

But at least you admit that Hamas, Hizbullah, and PLO -- due to their goals, the destruction of Israel -- are not really peace partners.

Good. Some reality finally broke in.

 

[geni]

But at least you admit that Hamas, Hizbullah, and PLO -- due to their goals, the destruction of Israel -- are not really peace partners.

The PLO are these days mostly limited to the west bank who's population appears to be more open to a somewhat peaceful settlement. As a result it should be possible to work with them.

I don't recall any suggestions that Hezbollah had a significant role in a long term peacful outcome to anything.

Hamas? We'll have to wait and see what the next generation brings. Power corrupts and the corrupt have their uses.

 

[Virus]

How about the people Israel was negotiation with in Madrid, like Haydar Abd al-Shafi, for starters? The PLO wasn't involved in the Madrid negotiations but Israel railroaded the Palestinian delegation by opening up back channel negotiations with Arafat, delegitimising moderates like Dr. al-Shafi and installing the old despot Arafat as the leader of the Palestinian movement, a subserviant lackey who was prepared to accept the joke of an agreement that was Oslo, which directly led to to rise of Hamas and other Islamist groups as the people became disillusioned with the PLO, both their corrupt cronyism and their willingness to roll-over for Israel and accept the unacceptable by legitimising the occupation. Israel needed a lackey it could easily demonise (quite rightly so) as a terrorist when the accords inevitably fell apart. Israel has never been interested in a genuine peace with Palestine, the last thing in the world they have ever wanted is a genuine Arab state within Ersatz Yisrael.

Question; What ass did you pull this narrative from? Sounds like a Noam Chomsky book condensed into one paragraph.

 

[bit_pattern]

Of course, as long as Israel refused to recognize Arafat's PLO, well, that just proved how evil Israel is and how it doesn't want peace.

That's just nonsense. How old are you? Do you even remember the Oslo accords? Arafat was universally seen as terrorist outside of the trendy new-left type circles. At any rate, since when does the opinion of the rest of the world have any bearing whatsoever on what Israel does or who it recognises?

 

[bit_pattern]

Question; What ass did you pull this narrative from? Sounds like a Noam Chomsky book condensed into one paragraph.

Yup, that about sums up the level of discourse I've come to expect from you, Virus. You're not worth the waste of effort in trying to engage you in anything close to an intelligent discussion. Most people I argue with here I have some modicum of respect for - Pardalis, Quixote, Mycroft, hell, even Bigjelmelpro - they are all capable of forcefully arguing their points while retaining some degree of civility. While you, it seems, are capable of neither. As a blind ideologue, you must find it baffling that some people can think for themselves and don't rely on sanitised, pre-packaged "narratives" to tell them how to think.

 

[Virus]

Yup, that about sums up the level of discourse I've come to expect from you, Virus. You're not worth the waste of effort in trying to engage you in anything close to an intelligent discussion. Most people I argue with here I have some modicum of respect for - Pardalis, Quixote, Mycroft, hell, even Bigjelmelpro - they are all capable of forcefully arguing their points while retaining some degree of civility. While you, it seems, are capable of neither. As a blind ideologue, you must find it baffling that some people can think for themselves and don't rely on sanitised, pre-packaged "narratives" to tell them how to think.

So you came up with all of that, including full knowledge of what the various actors were thinking and their diabolical plots all by yourself?

 

[bit_pattern]

So you came up with all of that, including full knowledge of what the various actors were thinking and their diabolical secret plans all by yourself?

Having an edjumacation is a wonderful thing. You should try it!

 

[Virus]

Having an edjumacation is a wonderful thing!

You have qualifications in Middle Eastern history or something? Should have said so earlier.