The Marjorie Taylor Greene thread.

[smartcooky]

I am a litle scared that the US is starting to resemble Spain right before it's civil war.

Scared? You've been posting your wet dreams for an armed insurrection here for 18 months.
Cold feet now?

He wasn't advocating for said war. He's been expressing his fears all along, and he made that clear.

I think dudalb has some very valid points here ....

• questioning by the political Right of the validity of elections that brought a left-wing government to power

• the country on the edge of a major confrontation between the Left and the Right.

• anger and distrust between different regions of the country.

• the Right openly calling for martial law to oust the left-wing government.

• major socioeconomic problems, such as poverty and inequality.

• endemic political violence and demonstrations

• plans and attempts to assassinate political figures

• refusal of political parties and groups to compromise and respect democratic norms

• many of the privileged elite fearing the country on the brink of lapsing into to "socialism" (which they falsely equate to communism)


This is not the USA I'm talking about here, this is Spain between 1931 and 1936... these are the conditions that existed during the 5-6 years before their civil war.

Any of it look familiar?

People like Taylor-Greene, Hawley, Boebert, Cruz, Flynn et al stoke the fires of the stuff in the above list. They would like nothing more than a bloody civil war to achieve their ends of bringing Trump back into power as an authoritarian leader. The Right in various US States with their voter suppression legislation, and their direct legislative challenges to American citizens' First Amendment Right to free speech and political protest, are helping them to get it done.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think dudalb has some very valid points here ....

• questioning by the political Right of the validity of elections that brought a left-wing government to power

• the country on the edge of a major confrontation between the Left and the Right.

• anger and distrust between different regions of the country.

• the Right openly calling for martial law to oust the left-wing government.

• major socioeconomic problems, such as poverty and inequality.

• endemic political violence and demonstrations

• plans and attempts to assassinate political figures

• refusal of political parties and groups to compromise and respect democratic norms

• many of the privileged elite fearing the country on the brink of lapsing into to "socialism" (which they falsely equate to communism)


This is not the USA I'm talking about here, this is Spain between 1931 and 1936... these are the conditions that existed during the 5-6 years before their civil war.

Any of it look familiar?

People like Taylor-Greene, Hawley, Boebert, Cruz, Flynn et al stoke the fires of the stuff in the above list. They would like nothing more than a bloody civil war to achieve their ends of bringing Trump back into power as an authoritarian leader, and the Right in various US States with their voter suppression legislation, and their direct legislative challenges to American citizens' First Amendment Right to free speech and political protest, are helping them to get it done.

I think you have a serious problem of scale here.

 

[smartcooky]

I think you have a serious problem of scale here.

How so?

Big things very often come from small beginnings. At the risk if invoking Godwin, WW2 and the Holocaust had its beginning with a lowly nobody being sent by the Army to spy on a barely known political group.

NSDAP were a political joke and a laughing stock in 1925... by 1945, over 75 million people had been killed.

Problem of scale... I don't think so

 

[Galaxie]

I think the idea that some kind of domestic armed conflict is impossbiel should have died with Jan.6th.

Yes, although I thought the right-wing insurrectionists were so inept, and cried so much afterward, that it actually gave me a small amount of hope for the future. It's hard to be scared of bumbling idiots.

 

[Galaxie]

How so?

Big things very often come from small beginnings. At the risk if invoking Godwin, WW2 and the Holocaust had its beginning with a lowly nobody being sent by the Army to spy on a barely known political group.

I think Skeptic Ginger is right - for now.

One, the U.S. military has not given any indication of taking sides.

Two, the church played a big role in the Spanish civil war. Churches are dying in the U.S. and frankly don't have that much political influence anymore.

Three, the U.S. does not currently have large-scale anarchist groups (or left-wing worker unions) marching in the streets.

 

[smartcooky]

Yes, although I thought the right-wing insurrectionists were so inept, and cried so much afterward, that it actually gave me a small amount of hope for the future. It's hard to be scared of bumbling idiots.

I fear they won't remain bumbling idiots for long.

It will not have gone unnoticed that the main reasons for so many of them getting caught was because they failed to hide their faces, they videoed themselves breaking the law, and then afterwards, openly bragged about what they did.

If there is another January 6 type event in the future, they won't make these particular mistakes again!

 

[smartcooky]

I think Skeptic Ginger is right - for now

One, the U.S. military has not given any indication of taking sides.

Two, the church played a big role in the Spanish civil war. Churches are dying in the U.S. and frankly don't have that much political influence anymore.

Three, the U.S. does not currently have large-scale anarchist groups (or left-wing worker unions) marching in the streets.

Agreed, and I'm not saying its all about to kick off... but the US is currently walking on, or at least beside, the path to civil war... if they don't start pulling back soon, I think it is inevitable

 

[Galaxie]

I fear they won't remain bumbling idiots for long.

It will not have gone unnoticed that the main reasons for so many of them getting caught was because they failed to hide their faces, they videoed themselves breaking the law, and then afterwards, openly bragged about what they did.

If there is another January 6 type event in the future, they won't make these particular mistakes again!

But how can they get smarter if they're openly against learning? It's a Catch-22 for them.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Churches are dying in the U.S. and frankly don't have that much political influence anymore.

When did Wisconsin leave the planet? Virtually the entirety of politics in the US, the "culture wars", is a proxy for fundamentalist/literalist vs everyone else.

 

[smartcooky]

But how can they get smarter if they're openly against learning? It's a Catch-22 for them.

Do not confuse intelligence with animal cunning.

These people might not be book smart, but they are street smart. They will learn by their mistakes, in the same way that a dog learns that the ends of a cat's legs have sharp things in them that inflict pain.

Just on my earlier point - an anti democracy, failed businessman becomes President of the United States, and he turns out to be a corrupt authoritarian who uses the presidency to line his own pockets and those of his family, and tells tens of thousand of political lies, and breaks the law with impunity, and stokes racial divisions throughout the country, and blackmails a foreign leader to get dirt on political opponents, and incites an insurrection at the Capitol after losing the election.

Think back to 10 to 15 years; did any of these things happening seem likely to you -

 

[Norman Alexander]

Do not confuse intelligence with animal cunning.

These people might not be book smart, but they are street smart. They will learn by their mistakes, in the same way that a dog learns that the ends of a cat's legs have sharp things in them that inflict pain.

Just on my earlier point - an anti democracy, failed businessman becomes President of the United States, and he turns out to be a corrupt authoritarian who uses the presidency to line his own pockets and those of his family, and tells tens of thousand of political lies, and breaks the law with impunity, and stokes racial divisions throughout the country, and blackmails a foreign leader to get dirt on political opponents, and incites an insurrection at the Capitol after losing the election.

Think back to 10 to 15 years; did any of these things happening seem likely to you -

Actually, yes. In fact, I'm surprised it hasn't happened sooner.

For me, the rise of the evangelical religious right has been the key factor. It has kept its self-interested insurrection bubbling and seething away underneath the USA for decades now, feeding the ignorance and influencing where it could. Sometimes a few pustules broke the surface, until finally some of the nasty turdy scum it has brewed from the depths floats to the top.

 

[Galaxie]

When did Wisconsin leave the planet?

Oh, somewhere around 2010.

Virtually the entirety of politics in the US, the "culture wars", is a proxy for fundamentalist/literalist vs everyone else.

Disagree. The religious right is a small portion of the larger right-wing group. They've got traditional values people, old-school social conservatives, pro-big-business/low taxes people, authoritarians, fascists, libertarians, Trumpers, 2nd Amendment nuts, anti-abortionists, etc. and those only occasionally overlap with religion these days.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Oh, somewhere around 2010.


Disagree. The religious right is a small portion of the larger right-wing group. They've got traditional values people, old-school social conservatives, pro-big-business/low taxes people, authoritarians, fascists, libertarians, Trumpers, 2nd Amendment nuts, anti-abortionists, etc. and those only occasionally overlap with religion these days.

Citations then.

 

[dudalb]

Oh, somewhere around 2010.


Disagree. The religious right is a small portion of the larger right-wing group. They've got traditional values people, old-school social conservatives, pro-big-business/low taxes people, authoritarians, fascists, libertarians, Trumpers, 2nd Amendment nuts, anti-abortionists, etc. and those only occasionally overlap with religion these days.

And the coalition is falling apart.....
And I disagree with you equation of more classic GOP stands with the idiocy and madness we see nowdays. I ,for one, have some sympathy with the limited government wing of the party.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

I ,for one, have some sympathy with the limited government wing of the party.

Hope you don't really. Do you mean you actually agree with that wing of the party or do you mean you're in favor of real limited government?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

How so?

Big things very often come from small beginnings. At the risk if invoking Godwin, WW2 and the Holocaust had its beginning with a lowly nobody being sent by the Army to spy on a barely known political group.

NSDAP were a political joke and a laughing stock in 1925... by 1945, over 75 million people had been killed.

Problem of scale... I don't think so

Because this:

Yes, although I thought the right-wing insurrectionists were so inept, and cried so much afterward, that it actually gave me a small amount of hope for the future. It's hard to be scared of bumbling idiots.

It's a joke that there is any kind of force involved here. The people who broke into the Capitol, and failed BTW, were a rag-tag group of weekend warriors who have a much too high opinion of their 'pretend to be revolutionaries' games. They were accompanied by an army a cluster **** of complete idiots. And they were led by Dump who had a delusional vision that some army of the people was going to keep him in power.

What's left as Dump fades from view are crazy people that think Q is a real thing the same way crazies believe the illuminati and One World Order is a real thing.

They got nothing except media attention (not hard to get) and a few really crazy loners who are probably making pipe bombs in their parents' garages as we speak. That is one of the sad truths of the remnants of Dump, that along with more than a few people who are going to do some serious time in federal prison for their foolishness.


The big problem we are left with is clearing out these cheating GOP legislators and that might be a serious problem that will take some time to rout. And the whole last decade of GOP propaganda has set critical thinking back much too far. I think (IMO here) that people had their orgy of crazy and are starting to trickle back into the real world. I hope anyway.

I doubt all those 74 million who voted for Dump still think it was a great idea.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I fear they won't remain bumbling idiots for long.

It will not have gone unnoticed that the main reasons for so many of them getting caught was because they failed to hide their faces, they videoed themselves breaking the law, and then afterwards, openly bragged about what they did.

If there is another January 6 type event in the future, they won't make these particular mistakes again!

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be mean but that might apply to 10% or less of those bumbling idiots.

Did you see the young woman who was shocked she had been pepper sprayed and pushed back out of the building because "it was a revolution, man" (or words to that effect)? She was truly dumbfounded by the events.

If you think about it, how would these idiots not have known they should hide their faces? Left leaning protestors and anarchists who were partaking in serious civil disobedience have known that since at least as far back as the J Edgar Hoover days, probably long before that.

They were stupid enough to believe they would succeed and become the new US government as if no one in the military would stop them.

And how stupid was the young woman who climbed through the Chamber door window and was immediately shot and killed? What did she think would happen? Guess we'll never know.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Agreed, and I'm not saying its all about to kick off... but the US is currently walking on, or at least beside, the path to civil war... if they don't start pulling back soon, I think it is inevitable

I assure you, no we are not.

But I can see how it might look that way when viewed through the news or social media filters from outside the country.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Except those same arguments were used to suppress the black voters during Jim Crow.

OK, so a minimum standard to stand for office?

 

[dudalb]

Hope you don't really. Do you mean you actually agree with that wing of the party or do you mean you're in favor of real limited government?

GOP has been dead to me for long time. around 20 years .
I am just skeptical that the answer to every problem is a huge government program, and think that private enterprise should remain the main engine of the US economy. No fan of "command econocmy" or that government regulation..a certain amount of which is necessary (this is where I break with the Libertarians) ..should be so extensive as to amount to a de facto government takeover..which I am afriad some progressives..though they won't say so honestly..in their hearts believe.
But the current GOP is beyond redemption; if you read Jennifer Rubin and Max Boot in the WAPO that is pretty much where I stand.