The Marjorie Taylor Greene thread.

[newyorkguy]

You simply aren't getting the point...

I think you could argue the point is to NOT get the point. If Greene was an otherwise reasonable and good-hearted person, I could buy the latest argument defending her, though without agreeing with it. Except Greene is a demagogue who likes to target people as a way of getting political support for herself. Get 'em angry and they'll remember my name. For instance her statement calling BLM a radical Marxist group. It's nonsensical but it works with people who despise BlackLivesMatter and for reasons other than economic theory.

Greene is someone who has suggested there is some international Jewish cabal that started the wildfires in California with a space laser. Seriously, in the 21st century someone is babbling nonsense like that?

She's not a good person, she's a conspiracy-spouting troublemaker, period. End-of-story.

 

[Minoosh]

I don't think anyone is pretending.

If they're not pretending, they are genuinely transgender. I suppose they could all be pretending just to troll Marjorie Taylor Greeene and her ilk, but I don't think so.

Imagine a teenager telling a parent they're gay. The parent says, "You're not gay." I bet you this has happened in thousands of households. "You're not gay, you just haven't met the right girl." "You're not gay. You could be straight anytime you decided to be it's just a choice." "You're not gay, you're pretending to be to antagonize your parents."

It is taking something critical to a person's identity and telling them it is make believe. I don't think you're doing that, but MTG is.

I use gay because people know better now, gay people still get the above reaction sometime but for the most part people are better informed. Acknowledging there really are transgender people is a step in the right direction. I don't know how to resolve some of the social issues transgenderism raises but I don't think people are pretending about how they feel.

There's something really obnoxious about being told how you feel or don't feel.

 

[Distracted1]

If they're not pretending, they are genuinely transgender. I suppose they could all be pretending just to troll Marjorie Taylor Greeene and her ilk, but I don't think so.

Imagine a teenager telling a parent they're gay. The parent says, "You're not gay." I bet you this has happened in thousands of households. "You're not gay, you just haven't met the right girl." "You're not gay. You could be straight anytime you decided to be it's just a choice." "You're not gay, you're pretending to be to antagonize your parents."

It is are taking something critical to a person's identity and telling them it is make believe. I don't think you're doing that, but MTG is.

I use gay because people know better now, gay people still get the above reaction sometime but for the most part people are better informed. Acknowledging there really are transgender people is a step in the right direction. I don't know how to resolve some of the social issues transgenderism raises but I don't think people are pretending about how they feel.

There's something really obnoxious about being told how you feel or don't feel.

Your argument only works if one accepts that a trans-gender person actually is the gender they feel themselves to be.

Greene is not claiming that trans people do not exist. She is pointing out that they are not the gender they may demand to be considered. That is not denial of rights or privileges. She has proposed no penalties for believing oneself to be a gender other than what they are, nor has she proposed any for pretending to be a gender that one is not.

What she has chosen to highlight is that it is a violation of other peoples' rights and privileges to deny them the freedom to view reality independent of the "feelings" of someone else. A woman is an adult, human, female. A man does not become a woman by "feeling" like one. They become "a man who feels like a woman" a "trans-woman"

There is an entire thread (a very, very long and in depth one) regarding this issue. If you wish to go there, that is probably the place for discussing the basis of the claims.

 

[Minoosh]

Your argument only works if one accepts that a trans-gender person actually is the gender they feel themselves to be.

You are conflating sex and gender and the meanings of these are diverging quite a bit through usage, often with the support of science.

As I think newyorkguy pointed out, if MTG had any reputation beyond being a vile, lying, gun-fetishist QAnon-babbling groper of imagined and probably real genitals, I might give her the benefit of the doubt. But no. She is rank through and through and her positions are cynically calculated to win the affection of the "Trump was robbed" liars promoting insurrection against the United States and absolutely *pining* for a Christian theocracy. I've stopped believing in any harmless interpretations of that. I have no compunction about believing her bigoted through and through. She is acting maliciously.

I notice the flag-flying specifies not "over" an embassy post so draping it from a window below the U.S. flag should be OK.

 

[smartcooky]

Greene is not claiming that trans people do not exist.

Except for the fact that she is claiming that there are only two genders, so that is exactly what she is doing - she is saying if you are male by sex, you MUST BE male by gender, i.e. of you are male by sex, you CANNOT be female by gender, therefore you are wrong, therefore your kind don't exist.

She is pointing out that they are not the gender they may demand to be considered.

Except for the fact that this is untrue.

Again, it bears repeating - sex and gender are not the same thing. The science of psychology is very clear on this. Feeling that your sex and your gender do not match is a real thing, it actually happens to people, and it is NOT, repeat NOT a choice they get to make.

That is not denial of rights or privileges.

Except for the fact that for people to be treated as equals and not be discriminated against for characteristics they have no choice over, is a fundamental right. Black people don't choose to be black, gay people don't choose to be gay and transgender people don't choose to be transgender.

Advocating against that, which is what Greene has done, is advocating for a denial of rights.

She has proposed no penalties for believing oneself to be a gender other than what they are, nor has she proposed any for pretending to be a gender that one is not.

Discrimination is a penalty. Opposing legislation to grant rights to people who suffer discrimination is in effect, allowing a penalty to continue to be imposed.

What she has chosen to highlight is that it is a violation of other peoples' rights and privileges to deny them the freedom to view reality independent of the "feelings" of someone else. A woman is an adult, human, female. A man does not become a woman by "feeling" like one. They become "a man who feels like a woman" a "trans-woman"

What a load of supercilious, ill-informed horse cock.

Transgender people, and their existence has ZERO EFFECT on people who are not transgender. It does not effect their rights or privileges; it does not change anything about how they go about their daily lives. But the discrimination YOU are advocating for (and lets be blunt, you are at the very lease a supporter of the homophobic, anti-LGBTQ crowd or you wouldn't be arguing on Greene's side of the debate) has a very real, very damaging psychological and emotional impact on people with gender identity issues.

This was Green's clear intent with her sign, to cause emotional hurt and distress to Newman and her daughter.

 

[Shalamar]

I propose that Marjorie Taylor Greene is not in fact a woman, and is in fact a form of ambulatory slime, along with those who agree with her.

 

[Steve]

I propose that Marjorie Taylor Greene is not in fact a woman, and is in fact a form of ambulatory slime, along with those who agree with her.

Seems so, She is merely pretending to be something other than slime. No evidence has been offered that contradicts this so you are likely correct.

 

[Norman Alexander]

This was Green's clear intent with her sign, to cause emotional hurt and distress to Newman and her daughter.

Which is why I advocate for altering it with a sharpie. That is, hit her sign with graffiti, constantly and publicly, and put the results on Facebook. She can bitch and moan about "denying freedom of speech" and such-like all she wants. Too bad; she passed on any sense of decency and respect ages ago. Tag her up!

 

[Minoosh]

I wonder if she's boffed Trump yet.

 

[newyorkguy]

A different point of view by Utah's Republican governor Spencer Cox.

"I think there’s still much that we can do to protect women’s sports and also, to send a message to trans kids that there’s a place for them, and that they belong," he said during a televised news conference Thursday. "And that’s really important to me that they know that...These kids are -- they’re just trying to stay alive," he said. FOX News link

 

[BobTheCoward]

Discrimination is a penalty. Opposing legislation to grant rights to people who suffer discrimination is in effect, allowing a penalty to continue to be imposed.

Discrimination by anyone other than the government is freedom of association. It isn't a penalty in your life that there are billions of people choosing not to interact with you.

 

[Minoosh]

A different point of view by Utah's Republican governor Spencer Cox.

That's nice to hear. It's a simple, empathetic response stripped of activist rhetoric pro or con. I wish more Republicans were like that.

 

[dudalb]

My ignore list just grew by another bigot.

 

[Babbylonian]

My ignore list just grew by another bigot.

It's a pretty amazing argument. "How can MTG be a bigot if she's just saying things that I totally agree with?"

Yeah. Exactly.

 

[smartcooky]

Which is why I advocate for altering it with a sharpie. That is, hit her sign with graffiti, constantly and publicly, and put the results on Facebook. She can bitch and moan about "denying freedom of speech" and such-like all she wants. Too bad; she passed on any sense of decency and respect ages ago. Tag her up!

Yup, if putting up that sign is MTG expressing her freedom of speech, then any sharpie graffiti would be the tagger expressing theirs.

 

[Dr. Keith]

"Weird" is a grown person (of which I am assuming you are)who doesn't know what a "lie" is.

A misrepresentation?

 

[Distracted1]

A misrepresentation?

I would plea to "incomplete" representation.

Is "trust the science" really the part that has people upset?

 

[Dr. Keith]

It's a pretty amazing argument. "How can MTG be a bigot if she's just saying things that I totally agree with?"

Yeah. Exactly.

Just catching up and you just saved me a lot of time.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Yup, if putting up that sign is MTG expressing her freedom of speech, then any sharpie graffiti would be the tagger expressing theirs.

It is a time-honoured method of counter-punching.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I would plea to "incomplete" representation.

Is "trust the science" really the part that has people upset?

The whole thing is wrong. The entire message. The misrepresentation of science from a person who believes in Jewish Space Lasers starting fires is a part of that whole.