The Freeman Movement and England

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LightinDarkness said:
The idea comes from the fact that somewhere a FOTL woo found Black Law's dictionary and noticed that "person" was not defined as "human being." Now, a NORMAL person would come to the conclusion that just because a legal dictionary does not include the universe of synonyms for words that this does not mean that such synonyms do not exist (ie, that there is no difference between a human being and a person but just that the writer of the document didnt need to put all synonyms for PERSON in there, which would include human beings, people, whatever). But when your a woo..well..FOTL occurs when you read that.
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No I know that but their is an idea in FTOL circles that when you are born the goverment backs that strawman with a singificant amount of chash and if you say the right legal spells you can use it to offset liabilities. I can't work out where this idea comes from.
 
commandlinegamer said:
I suppose it's hardly surprising given the amount of cults that have taken hold over the centuries, but my head is still spinning after reading some of this stuff over the last couple of days.

It doesn't help that there's no real argument here, just the same claims posted ad nauseam with no real evidence to back them up. And there seems to be a confusion about UK and English law. If people want to talk about English law, fine. Just remember the Scottish legal system also exists within the UK framework and is for the most part separate from its English counterpart.

As for this Admiralty court thing, the Scots version was apparently abolished 170 years ago; not sure about other jurisdictions. I know people use various reasons to get around paying taxes, but if you really want to take action against the government, don't wait till they send you a bill, get out on the streets and tell them about it.

Prior to this the only Freemen I knew of, aside from those individuals awarded the honour from a city or burgh, was the secret, thuggish organisation from that most excellent Sherlock Holmes' story The Valley of Fear. That book was enjoyable. These new freemen not so much.
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Ah, the Molly Maguires by any other name....
The second half of the Conan Doyle Novel is a thinly disguised retelling of Molly Maguires in the Pennslyvania Coal Fields in the 1860's and 1870's. Still a controversial matter among historians, as to whether they were a pure criminal organization or whether their violence was a form of protest against the horrid conditions in the Mines of that period.
A decent film about the Mollies starrion Sean Connory and Richard Harris was made back in 1979.
 
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LissaLysikan said:
If I clean up the structure of this can I get 50% when we get the movie sold to Hollywood?
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Yes. Somebody phone up Rob Zombie and Quentin Tarantino. Tell Quentin we'll change all the nipples to feet and he'll sign anything.
aggle-rithm said:
....L. Ron Hubbard...? I thought you were dead!
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I'm not sure, honestly. I was writing a perfectly normal simile, something in my head went "SPROING!" and I started ranting about atomic moleman nipples. What Judas Priest is doing in there I have no idea. :boggled:
 
While we're waiting for news of any instance where FOTL arguments have worked, I bring news of recent FOTL fail in Canada

By declaring themselves natural persons, the pair contended they no longer fit the definition of "person" put forward in the Income Tax Act, which they say applies only to the artificial person. The pair contended they therefore had no obligation to pay taxes.

This argument had "no basis in law," according to Judge Georgette Sheridan.

"Though opposed to paying taxes themselves, the Kions had no compunction about wasting the tax dollars of their fellow Canadians by failing to comply with their obligations under the law and prosecuting nonsensical claims at the administrative level and in the judicial system," Judge Sheridan wrote, adding, "nor did their philosophical underpinnings prevent them from pocketing amounts received from the Child Tax Benefit and the GST Tax Credit."
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Nice touch from these FOTLers in grabbing up the artificial person's tax credits, I thought.
 
Thanks for the info folks. I've managed to piece together a pretty decent article on it...I'm waiting for a friend of mine to proof read it and will post it here tomorrow. Hope you folks like it. It involves a few things I learned on here which we're cross referenced with other sources to debunk the theory.

I'm still new at this whole skepticism thang, so take it easy on me if ya don't like it fellas. I know how ruthless you guys can be.

Special thanx again to LID.
 
Sunray Breaker said:
Thanks for the info folks. I've managed to piece together a pretty decent article on it...I'm waiting for a friend of mine to proof read it and will post it here tomorrow. Hope you folks like it. It involves a few things I learned on here which we're cross referenced with other sources to debunk the theory.

I'm still new at this whole skepticism thang, so take it easy on me if ya don't like it fellas. I know how ruthless you guys can be.

Special thanx again to LID.
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This is great to hear - the more people we have systematically debunking FOTL woo the better. It seems to be the next big thing in conspiracy. Can't wait to read it and I'm sure it does a great job putting this silliness to rest (not that the woos would ever believe you).
 
Elizabeth I said:
Especially, let me lay out a hypothetical scenario for you. There will be a question at the end, which I hope you will be honest and brave enough to answer.

Here's the scenario:

  1. You receive your property tax statement, or your income tax form, or whatever document the statute-givers [I'm sorry, I don't know your term for those who pass statutes and the people who work for them, so I hope you will understand my using this phrase in this context] use to communicate with you that they believe you owe them money.
  2. You demand that they present an itemized invoice of services for which you are paying.
  3. Being evil persons operating under Admiralty law instead of common law, the statute-givers refuse your quite reasonable demand.
  4. Because you have been given no explanation of the benefits you will receive in return for your tax payment, you refuse to pay.
  5. Being evil persons with all the force of the police and the military behind them, the statute-givers come to your house, and, despite your explanations that you are subject to common law, not statute, you are arrested, handcuffed, and taken off to jail. The statute-givers have the guns, you see.
  6. After some time in jail, you are brought to trial. You refuse to answer to your name, you refuse to "stand under" Admiralty law, you take every step the Freeman philosophy prescribes for how a Freeman should behave under these circumstances.
  7. However, the judge is an evil person, an occult Jesuit Mason Knight of Columbus Jew who answers only to Her Royal Majesty Elizabeth Windsor, the Queen of England, and the Pope in Rome; and the jury (if there is one) is composed of brainwashed sheep who don't understand that statute is not the same as common law. So you are found guilty of tax evasion, even though you have spoken all the correct words, you have refused to submit to the corrupt Admiralty court, and, again, you have followed every step in the Freeman guidebook. You are sentenced to a term in prison.
  8. The statute-givers and their corrupt police still have the guns, so you are taken to prison. You, again, say all the correct phrases, you announce that you are not subject to statute but only to common law, you explain that you declined to enter into a contract to pay taxes.
  9. None of it works, because you are in the clutches of a corrupt system (or maybe just well-intentioned but uninformed people who haven't had the whole thing completely explained to them.)
  10. So, in spite of the fact that you have done everything you believe you should have done, here you are in prison for an extended stay.

That was the scenario.

Here's the question: what do you do now? What is the next step under the Freeman plan? To whom do you appeal?
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By the IPU's whiskers you have me convinced! Where can I get the Admiralty Flag thingy? I want to try this in Canada. :(
 
I just started reading this thread (hilarious) and can't find what FOTL is. The interwebs say Fruit of The Loom, while fitting in it's own unsual way, I suspect it has more to do with Tax Laws?
 
3bodyproblem said:
I just started reading this thread (hilarious) and can't find what FOTL is. The interwebs say Fruit of The Loom, while fitting in it's own unsual way, I suspect it has more to do with Tax Laws?
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FOTL = Freeman On The Land (Google search)

(I accidentally typed "freeman on the land" into Wikipedia and got the article for "serfdom". Heh.)
 
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Cl1mh4224rd said:
FOTL = Freeman On The Land (Google search)

(I accidentally typed "freeman on the land" into Wikipedia and got the article for "serfdom". Heh.)
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Thanks.

I guess I didn't connect it (The Freeman to FOTL) because we usually call them hippies. Well at least it's my hippy friends that usually spout this crap here in Canada. Most of the time it's about getting something for nothing. They don't want to contribute to the infrastructure and the programs, but they certainly aren't shy about using them.

As much as I get taxed, I enjoy the privilege of having roads, hospitals, health care, clean water etc.

Sometimes I think it's too bad that we, as a society care for the health and well being of these "Freemen". There's plenty of Crown Land (hehe, the irony of that) here in Canada we could drop them off in and let them be "free".

A couple years of running around "free" in Northern Ontario would make them beg for the privilege of being a tax paying citizen.
 
Elizabeth I said:
Just get a Canadian flag and sew some gold fringe around the edges of it, et voilá!
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Except that our courtrooms typically do not have flags in them... this might be a bit of a problem for the FOTLers. ;)
 
Wow, this is quite the rabbit hole isn't it?

Does anyone have a good link on this? The Google link seems like a lot BS to wade through. I keep getting a lot of crappy websites that want to sell books and videos.
 
That brings up a question .... who shall be the 'Gravy' for debunking FOTL?
 
3bodyproblem said:
Wow, this is quite the rabbit hole isn't it?

Does anyone have a good link on this? The Google link seems like a lot BS to wade through. I keep getting a lot of crappy websites that want to sell books and videos.
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Here's a really fun one... http://www.teamlaw.net/Mythology.htm

They lay out the faults in many of the FOTL arguments, such as the "Strawman" and "U.C.C.-1", but then they advocate some equally weird beliefs, such as "there are only 48 states":

TeamLaw.net said:
Therefore, there are to this day only 48 States in the Union of States of the United States of America and the proper flag of our nation has only 48 stars on its jack.
The 50 star flag is the proper flag of the President of Corp. U.S. and is properly used in his capacity as the Commander in Chief of the military forces of the United States of America, which are an original jurisdiction government body but they stand today under the assignment of Lincoln's martial law as the enforcers of that martial law, whose business needs are dictatorially controlled by Corp. U.S.’S' President.
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They also, apparently, embrace NLP (Neuro-linguistic programmingWP).

More...
Quatloos covers financial scams in general. They have a forum section for tax fraud, which includes FOTL woo.

Idiot Legal Arguments: A Casebook for Dealing with Extremist Legal Arguments

The Tax Protester FAQ

And of course, the IRS has a few things to say: The Truth About Frivolous Tax Arguments
 
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