The etchics of keeping cats

[catsmate]

I've heard that furniture movers are sometimes attacked by cats when delivering or collecting furniture. Apparently some cats can get territorial.

Our Roomba was stalked and attacked a few times until Leonard accepted it.

Cats are a human problem. We domesticated them and introduced them to the habitats they're destroying. Cats are our responsibility because we've bred them to be dependent on us, and brought them into the areas where they've been diminishing the bird and animal population for centuries.

No one is trying to blame the cats. Please, let's get a grip on the argument being put forward here.

I agree. Except with the bits about cats being domesticated, they domesticated us.............

You don't keep a cat - it lets you live in it's house!

If you have a cat and it never goes out / you don't let it out, then it isn't a cat, it's a disgrace to catkind.

I assume this is a mostly American thing? Only British people I know who keep their cats indoors do so because they're pedigreed to the point of uselessness (eg Persians) and wouldn't last two seconds outside. I don't consider those as 'proper' cats either. I suppose some might keep them indoors in the 'big cities'... but I'd still let them take their chances outside...

I have 3 cats, they all have free use of the cat flap and all spend significant time outside - killing things or driving off the neighbour dogs and foxes that occasionally stray into the garden or continuing their ongoing war with the local magpies (stalemate at the moment but very entertaining). They're all about 10 years old and I expect them (on past experience) to live another 5 - 8 years. They've been neutered but no vaccines or other veterinary intervention.

Unlike the expectation of the programme makers of the recent Horizon documentary, I was not 'shocked' or 'upset' when their experiment showed that cats couldn't give a toss about their owners - I was delighted. Confirmed exactly what I thought and is the reason I love cats (unlike blindly stupid and loyal dogs!).

There you go, just thought I'd stir the pot .

Well this is pretty much what we do also (in Ireland); our cat is a Bengal and he spends a lot of time outside. Including killing rabbits on a piece of ground adjacent to us and bringing them back for us to share.
He doesn't seem interested in killing birds (unlike a falcon that nested nearby a few years ago and lest pigeon scraps everywhere) just animals.

 

[Brian-M]

Well this is pretty much what we do also (in Ireland); our cat is a Bengal and he spends a lot of time outside. Including killing rabbits on a piece of ground adjacent to us and bringing them back for us to share.
He doesn't seem interested in killing birds (unlike a falcon that nested nearby a few years ago and lest pigeon scraps everywhere) just animals.

The only thing my cat seems to bring back is fleas. I just found another two on her yesterday.

 

[GlennB]

Presumably (?) if we had never domesticated cats then there would still be a fair population of them hanging around our homes, attracted by the rats, mice, water and shelter that comes with humankind? I'd also guess that we'd quite welcome their presence on account of the vermin they kill.

 

[catsmate]

Presumably (?) if we had never domesticated cats then there would still be a fair population of them hanging around our homes, attracted by the rats, mice, water and shelter that comes with humankind? I'd also guess that we'd quite welcome their presence on account of the vermin they kill.

Well current the current theory is that the human move to agriculture, with the consequent storage of food, attracted rodents which attracted cats. Whether humans deliberately adopted felines or simply accepted their presence and the groups became comfortable with each other is still discussed.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Well current the current theory is that the human move to agriculture, with the consequent storage of food, attracted rodents which attracted cats. Whether humans deliberately adopted felines or simply accepted their presence and the groups became comfortable with each other is still discussed.

Meh, kid sees kitten, game over.

 

[zooterkin]

Off topic posts split to AAH.
Please keep to the topic of the thread, and keep it civil.

Thank you.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin

 

[Vortigern99]

Who is this "our" and "we"? It is an attractive and simple sentiment, but I can't abide by such reasoning.

Cat owners. Human beings, who domesticated cats and introduced them to human-populated areas, where they now cause problems such as decimating urban bird populations, pooping and pissing in yards without consent, spreading feline diseases.

That's what I mean by "we" and "our".

 

[GlennB]

Cat owners. Human beings, who domesticated cats and introduced them to human-populated areas, where they now cause problems such as decimating urban bird populations, pooping and pissing in yards without consent, spreading feline diseases.

My bolding. Did we introduce them , or did they just show up?

That was kind of the point of my post a little upthread. Seems to me the cats would still be there, domesticated or not. Seems they arrived because they were attracted to the whole idea of human settlements and we rather liked that plan.

If the alternative is to keep pet cats only indoors and exterminate the wild ones in order to stop the bird-killing, pooping etc then, well, it's a strange ol' world we're living in. Is there an animal in the whole world that only lives side-by-side with us in our homes? (bedbugs?)

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

My bolding. Did we introduce them , or did they just show up?

That was kind of the point of my post a little upthread. Seems to me the cats would still be there, domesticated or not. Seems they arrived because they were attracted to the whole idea of human settlements and we rather liked that plan.

Dis! Urban raccoons live longer than their rural cousins, and, on average, are bigger and heavier. AND there are more of them per square mile.

 

[Vortigern99]

My bolding. Did we introduce them , or did they just show up?

That was kind of the point of my post a little upthread. Seems to me the cats would still be there, domesticated or not. Seems they arrived because they were attracted to the whole idea of human settlements and we rather liked that plan.

If the alternative is to keep pet cats only indoors and exterminate the wild ones in order to stop the bird-killing, pooping etc then, well, it's a strange ol' world we're living in. Is there an animal in the whole world that only lives side-by-side with us in our homes? (bedbugs?)

In this I can only speak to my own country, the USA, into which humans definitely introduced the domesticated cat.

There are two main theories about how cats were originally domesticated -- one in which humans people deliberately tamed cats in a process of artificial selection, and an alternate theory in which humans tolerated cats, which gradually diverged from their wild relatives through natural selection. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat for the beginning of your research into this question)

Either way, though, by the time the Americas were colonized cats were long domesticated, and were certainly brought over as pets and mousers by colonists.

I'm not suggesting eradicating feral domestic cats. I'm proposing that cat owners have a responsibility to keep their cats inside -- as a debt of safety to cats whom we introduced to this country, as a measure of compassion for animals which these foreign-origin cats hunt and kill, and as a courtesy to our human neighbors who don't deserve to have their gardens pooped in.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

For those of you who are concerned with the damage cats do to the local wildlife I have bad news for you. There's something worse, and it's not getting any better, quite the opposite. Coyotes are spreading and invading everywhere. The first one I saw in Missouri was on 7th St., not far from the Stadium.

 

[GlennB]

I'm not suggesting eradicating feral domestic cats.

I'm not suggesting that you are.

I'm pointing out that 'natural' wild cats would also be pooping around and eating birds, the alternative being that all cats be kept indoors (a world-wide cat zoo, effectively) and that natural cats be exterminated. Otherwise there will always be a population of wild cats pooping and killing, whether they're indiginous or not.

 

[Brian-M]

Cat owners. Human beings, who domesticated cats and introduced them to human-populated areas, where they now cause problems such as decimating urban bird populations, pooping and pissing in yards without consent, spreading feline diseases.

Hmm... Cats poop and piss in our yards without consent, but they also decimate populations of birds that also poop and piss in our yards without consent. I wonder if it balances out?

I don't think my cat has been decimating the bird local population. I tend to overfeed her, so she's a bit on the tubby side. She never brings dead things home. And most of the birds I see in the area are magpies, sometimes cockatoos, not easy targets. (Although I'm sure that some cats will attack them.)

 

[GlennB]

Hmm... Cats poop and piss in our yards without consent, but they also decimate populations of birds that also poop and piss in our yards without consent. I wonder if it balances out?

I don't think my cat has been decimating the bird local population. I tend to overfeed her, so she's a bit on the tubby side. She never brings dead things home. And most of the birds I see in the area are magpies, sometimes cockatoos, not easy targets. (Although I'm sure that some cats will attack them.)

The *********** birds, rabbits, beech martens, rats, mice, badgers, vultures, dragons, Balrogs and deer eat the crap out of my veggie plot. Consent? I don't think so ....

Plus they leave their poop and piss all over the place. Damn animals

 

[Vortigern99]

I'm not suggesting that you are. I'm pointing out that 'natural' wild cats would also be pooping around and eating birds, the alternative being that all cats be kept indoors (a world-wide cat zoo, effectively) and that natural cats be exterminated. Otherwise there will always be a population of wild cats pooping and killing, whether they're indigenous or not.

Okay, I see what you mean. My points specifically addressed "kept" cats and cat owners' obligations to their animals, and to their neighbors. You're talking about solutions to the problem of feral cats, which is not really the topic of this thread and is beyond cat owners' ability to control.

However, as a brief sidebar I would suggest that considering other options beyond "extermination" would be a good place to start.

 

[Vortigern99]

Hmm... Cats poop and piss in our yards without consent, but they also decimate populations of birds that also poop and piss in our yards without consent. I wonder if it balances out?

I don't think my cat has been decimating the bird local population. I tend to overfeed her, so she's a bit on the tubby side. She never brings dead things home. And most of the birds I see in the area are magpies, sometimes cockatoos, not easy targets. (Although I'm sure that some cats will attack them.)

She sounds adorable and easy-going. However, anecdotal tales of tubby non-hunters don't counter the hard data that domesticated cats have decimated bird populations.

Cats are responsible for the deaths of 1.4 to 3.7 billion birds and 6.9 to 20.7 billion mammals every year, according to research conducted by the Smithsonian Conservation Biology Institute and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. --http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/cats-kill-billions-animals-annually-study-finds/story?id=18357853#.UdX3XKypebM​

But of course:

Feral, un-owned cats are responsible for the majority of deaths,​

... so let me amend my proposal (without moving any goalposts, I think) to "Cat owners can help keep habitat destruction at a minimum by keeping their cats indoors (unless they are tubby non-hunters [the cats, not the owners])."

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Cat owners. Human beings, who domesticated cats and introduced them to human-populated areas, where they now cause problems such as decimating urban bird populations, pooping and pissing in yards without consent, spreading feline diseases.

Yeah, I'm not either of those. And I suspect most people are not. How exactly am I responsible, or anyone else for that matter, because I am the same species of people who introduced cats hundreds of years ago?

But yeah, bears **** in the woods. I think people need to get over animals not paying attention to "their property" being any different than the rest of the outdoors. We have people furious about the horrible crime of deer munching on their gardens, ffs.[/slightlyOT]

 

[Vortigern99]

Yeah, I'm not either of those. And I suspect most people are not. How exactly am I responsible, or anyone else for that matter, because I am the same species of people who introduced cats hundreds of years ago?

But yeah, bears **** in the woods. I think people need to get over animals not paying attention to "their property" being any different than the rest of the outdoors. We have people furious about the horrible crime of deer munching on their gardens, ffs.[/slightlyOT]

If you're not a cat owner you're off the hook. The rest of your post is tilting windmills. Bears are indigenous to a given habitat in the US. Felis catus is not.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

If you're not a cat owner you're off the hook. The rest of your post is tilting windmills. Bears are indigenous to a given habitat in the US. Felis catus is not.

Yet another unjustified moral proposition .

 

[Vortigern99]

Yet another unjustified moral proposition .

Allow me to clarify my meaning. Bears for example evolved in a given habitat, affecting and being affected by all other species of plant, animal, bacteria, etc. in that habitat. Domesticated cats did not evolve here in the US, and data shows their presence is destructive to indigenous wildlife.

We can have a discussion about that if you want to.