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The Deluge

The water came from a canopy of water vapor that surrounded the earth up until the flood. "For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water." - 2 Peter 3:5 (See Genesis 1:6-8)

I have to say that I really don't understand what you think you're doing. I sort of had the impression that you were going to explain why the flood was scientifically possible.

Yes, we all know that once you introduce the concept of magic, you're going to be able to make up a bunch of nonsense to explain the flood.

-"How was there enough food?"
-"Harry Potter rolled off of Hermione and cast a foodus maximus spell."

Are you trying to convince us that your old fairy tale is remotely plausible? Or are you just telling us what your book of fairy tales says?
 
I think you may grossly underestimate the need for skeptics to vent their hostility for anyone who doesn't buy into their dogma.

Oh, they'll respond, you see that we have, but not in a way that's conducive to a real conversation.

You've already got a couple dozen good objections to why the flood as recorded in Genesis is highly unlikely to be historical reality.

None of your responses have been satisfying to a skeptical point of view.

So you've got several dozen, incomplete conversations with posters who now can't take you seriously. If you had posted the way I suggested, you'd have one, more intellectually open and honest debate.

Your call.
 
The water came from a canopy of water vapor that surrounded the earth up until the flood
Canopy of water, oh please, how did the sun light get thru it. Please make up another story on that, I want to hear it.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
SNICKER

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/dave_matson/young-earth/additional_topics/flood.html

The point is that in order to condense that vapor canopy to rain it would have to release enough heat to raise the temperature of our atmosphere to 6000 degrees! That's a straightforward calculation of the latent heat of vaporization. That is to say, there is no way to convert the vapor canopy into rain in time for Noah's flood without burning up the Earth!

Only one of a hundred reasons Noah's Flood is a folk tale.
 
according to Bible chronology...
According to what Bible chronology?

...the flood took place in 2370 B.C.E. The Akkadian Epic of Gilgamesh, as we know it from the library of Ashurbanipal (who reigned from 668 - 627 B.C.E.) didn't begin to circulate, fragmentarily, until 1900 B.C.E. so how you came to assume the former was inspired by the later is beyond my comprehension as well as, I would like to think, the comprehension of science.
The book of Genesis was written in its present form during the 5th century BCE, after the Babylonian exile.
 
"Canopy of water, oh please, how did the sun light get thru it. Please make up another story on that, I want to hear it."
.
Me too!
How high was that canopy?
How much water was in it?
What held that water up there?
What was the atmospheric pressure under that water?
What was the atmospheric temperature due to that pressure?
How much sunlight came thru that much water?
What was the amount of sunlight on the surface under that much water?
How could photosynthesis occur under that cloud cover?
What was the deposition rate of that water? Feet per hour, say.
What type of construction available then could survive that rate of fall?
Who wrangled all those different "kinds" of beasts from where they lived to the Middle East, and then back to their natural habitats?
There were only 8 people to do all that.
 
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How did the animals on the ark survive? What did the predators eat during their time on the boat and during their travel afterward? How did they all land at the top of a mountain in Armenia/Turkey and all manage to travel to places where they're more suited? (e.g. penguins to the Antarctic, polar bears to the arctic, different snakes to different deserts on vastly different continents, alligators to the Florida everglades, bison to North America, pandas to China, koalas and kangaroos to Australia...etc.etc.)

I just think it's weird that every species of penguin managed to get to Antarctica, yet not one polar bear followed them down there.

As I recall from my visit to the Creation Museum,* God herded all the animals in the direction of the ark, and Noah took it from there. Perhaps God wafted them all home after the flood was over.

Oh, by the way, I bet since penguins can swim, they didn't need a ride on the ark. There were definitely Penguins of Paradise though. Here's one with Adam and a lambikins before the creation of Eve:

picture.php


*Yes, I DO sometimes still wake up screaming.
 
How'd the amphibians and fresh water fish get onto the islands? Salt water is pretty deadly to amphibians and fresh water fish.

For that matter how did large trees and mammals and reptiles get onto the islands they are on?

What did all the animals eat after they got off the ark and began their long and arduous journey across the face of the entire planet that was devoid of things to eat?

Why require a global flood at all? There's no evidence for it, why can't it be interpreted as a myth like most Christians already do?
 
Here's one with Adam and a lambikins before the creation of Eve:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=277&pictureid=2810[/qimg]​

That was during that "an help meet for him" searching episode? :):)
 
That was during that "an help meet for him" searching episode? :):)

Well Adam and the lamb do look fairly cozy, and Adam's holding out his hand to...I don't know...a deer or something: "Will you be fruitful and multiply with me?"
 
If we accept that god is infinite, and that he created sufficient water to cover the surface of the Earth even to the tops of mountains...

... would you like some toast?

well howdy doodley doo

would you like a muffin
:p
 
Good response. Very well thought out, I consider myself fortunate to not have lost my faith. You read a great deal of Richard Dawkins, do you?

There are a number of very well thought out posts in this thread, which you seem to be ignoring in favor of the "covering one's ears and going Lalalalala-I-can't-hear-you" defense, backed up by "the bible says it therefore that's all that matters".

I could be wrong, though. You may be going for Tranewreck's Harry Potter theory.
 
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Your answer to the question: "where did the water go" is also non-sensical. if the water did not go anywhere and merely formed the current seas; then it implies that the water during the flood were the ones we know today. The flood was therefore not global and could not have drowned all of mankind.

If the water was so much lower before the flood, how come we only find underwater remain of human presence close to the actual shores? It is more consistent with limited changes in sea level through the ages?

6.5 meters? That wouldn't cover all the earth; many points would remain above sea level, once again, allowing for many people to survive.

How could the earth ecosystem work before the flood? 6.5 meters of water canopy would greatly the amount of light to make it to the ground to aliment photosynthesis...

How did the different species migrate to their final location? What did they eat on the way? One year of submersion would have killed all terrestrial plant life, devastating the ecosystem.

What exactly is the Biblical definition of kind?
You mention it being different from species (and much wider) yet give a definition as a 'population able to interbreed' which is the scientific definition.
Also, the Bible mentions several 'kind of Ravens' (Leviticus 11:13-19 ) suggesting a pretty narrow definition.
I know it is nothing but post hoc rationalization to get around the 2 millions and some species, but still it is not consistent.

Anyway if, at the time of the deluge, there only one "kind" (whatever that means) for any major groups, that suggest that there only was one representative specimen for every major animal group.
But, if, as creationists generally argue, against all evidences of the contrary, the geological column was formed during the deluge, how could there be many different species of the same kind represented in the column? Like, a bunch of different cat species?

Why would these column show such an ordered progression between the fossils (you know, the evolution thingy)?
What would these fossil distribution be consistent between geological columns at different location? One would expect the columns to be but a chaotic mess of whoever sinks first.
How can these columns show such biogeography? How come that fossils from the same environment consistently be present in the same layer (for example, a coastal deposit would show layers of aquatic species, interespeced with coastal marches or terrestrial environments)?
If humans were present at the time, how come the human artifacts are only present on the topmost layers of the columns? You'd expect the denser metal artifact to actually think faster and get at the bottom of the layers?

Also, if all similar species "evolved" from a single pair of individuals, like in Creationists' version of evolution. That'd mean that, to give you an example, by 2700BCE, all cats were identical. Within a thousand or so years, however, we enough clear written and pictoral evidences that the lineage had splitted into clearly identifiable species (cats and lion had different pictograms, for example).
That means some kind of super-boosted evolution able to introduce such levels of divergence within a thousand years. Yet; we don't have anything nearly as drastic represented in the several times that period covered in recorded history (we have plenty of evidence of evolution, of course, just not as happening that fast).

How could Noah and his handful of family members construct such a grandiose wooden ship whose dimension far exceed what is considered possible in naval engineering, even when they benefited from thousand of years of experience as well as very modern techniques and material that would have been unavailable to Noah himself (such as steel reinforcements)?
Especially considering the very rough condition that the ark would have had to wisthand.

Where did the pathogens go? Virus, parasites, several bacteria; they need a host to survive. A year interruption in their life cycle would have eradicated these species. Considering they are still around; they must have been present on the ark, which means that each individual on the ark must have had multiple infection, sometime quite serious ones, going on at the same time.
In fact; considering the short cycle of some of these parasites; there should have been either dead or cured (and hence no longer a carrier of the disease) within a short time (sometime a few days). When did the pathogen go in this case?
Seriously? Who of Noah's merry crew was responsible for carrying Ebola around?



that's just a few of the (not yet asked) questions that just popped through my head; I sure could think some more of them...

Also... what this guy says.
 
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