The biggest straw man

[logger]

How does supporting your country and your society "sap human dignity"?

Because it causes men to rely on big daddy government. There is nothing more pitiful than the supposed man who's a liberal begging for others to pay his way.

Actually what is truly funny is that it's not the left that get scared by this. It's the Right. When the whole Socialism = Venezuela is brought up, Leftist roll their eyes and groan because they know the truth. Rightists are the ones that flee in horror and hide under the pillows muttering about Reds under the bed and communism.

I'd say we know the truth of what leftists are. We know what they're capable of when money and power is involved. They seem to forget all about tolerance. Look at the hate many of our leftists friends project on this very forum. Have a look at the Ailes thread. You seriously want those kinds of people in charge?

 

[Worm]

This ought to be the new slogan of socialists. Pay for our loser asses or your selfish.

This assumes all socialists are on the receiving end of the equation. Distinctly not the case.

 

[TraneWreck]

Is it a common theory in right wing u.s. Groups to believe that Australians pays 50% taxes? I have lost count of the amount of nutters who have assured me of this fact. When I try to point out to then that I am fairly SURE I would know if I was paying that much they apparently know I am lying.

The average American attitude to socialism is rather baffling to many other people

1) Americans are dumb.
2) Because we're dumb, we look at our top marginal federal income tax rate and conclude that must be what people pay in average taxes.
3) Then we add 25% when estimating taxes in other countries because socialism.

 

[rustypouch]

Because it causes men to rely on big daddy government. There is nothing more pitiful than the supposed man who's a liberal begging for others to pay his way.

Then what's your solution to poor people suffering in countries where there's not than enough resources for everyone to live comfortably?

Do we ignore them and hope they go away?

Do we laugh at them for being poor?

 

[TraneWreck]

It amuses that conservatives have adopted this notion that being a selfish ass is "manly."

Self-sacrifice is traditionally the virtue that represents a manly-man. If there's suffering to be done, let me take it on because I'm *********** macho and I can handle it.

John Wayne steps in to engage in the gun battle to save someone from having to go through it. When it's cold, a manly man passes the blanket to the children because he can endure. When food is short, it goes to the pregnant woman.

It what perverse universe are the tough guys the one's who cravenly cling to their creature comforts while others suffer?

Please. There's nothing more pathetic than listening to million and billionaires whine about their tax rate when people in this country don't have health care, homes, and adequate nutrition.

 

[xjx388]

It amuses that conservatives have adopted this notion that being a selfish ass is "manly."

Self-sacrifice is traditionally the virtue that represents a manly-man. If there's suffering to be done, let me take it on because I'm *********** macho and I can handle it.

John Wayne steps in to engage in the gun battle to save someone from having to go through it. When it's cold, a manly man passes the blanket to the children because he can endure. When food is short, it goes to the pregnant woman.

It what perverse universe are the tough guys the one's who cravenly cling to their creature comforts while others suffer?

I think that stereotype can be perceived from many different viewpoints. Is it self-sacrifice? Or is it taking responsibility for personal failings?

In any case, I don't think that "being a manly-man" is the ideology behind conservative thinking.

Please. There's nothing more pathetic than listening to million and billionaires whine about their tax rate when people in this country don't have health care, homes, and adequate nutrition.

This kind of thinking is perceived as "jealousy" or "laziness." The idea being that those who are needy are needy because they don't want to work hard and want others to provide for them. "Hey, the rich have enough money; it's not fair that they hoard it all!"

Good or bad all depends on your personal viewpoint. In the US, the prevailing viewpoint has always been to pull yourself up by the bootstraps; i.e., take personal responsibility for your success or failure. Welfare states have been seen as very bad things.

For example, I grew up thinking some things about the Soviet Union, based on family talks and media coverage, that I don't even know how true some of it was. The gist of it was this: The USSR took control of all industries and tried to provide everything to everyone. They controlled what career you were going to have, how much food you got, where you lived . . . all in the name of equality and doing what was best for the society as a whole. But humans are humans and it was corrupt; those in power lived better than the regular people. When it failed, it was seen as, "See! Socialism cannot work!"

Now you have our own government slowly taking over more and more of our personal lives. Common Core, Single-Payer, paid-for college, income equality . . . it all feels like Socialism and we know Socialism can't work because the USSR failed and countries like Greece are failing. The Bootstrap philosophy is what "Made America Great."

Obviously, I'm oversimplifying here, but I don't think that it's too far away from the way a lot of Americans feel -especially the successful ones. So that's basically where the "straw man" comes from.

 

[TraneWreck]

In any case, I don't think that "being a manly-man" is the ideology behind conservative thinking.

You would be really, really wrong. Google this article and author and look at the hundreds of fawning references:

The Pussification Of The Western Male

We have become a nation of women.

- See more at: http://www.commonsenseevaluation.co...ion-of-the-western-male/#sthash.KI0yDUpw.dpuf

Yes, yes, "real" conservatives, blah blah.

It's a sad myth, both factually incorrect and morally deplorable. But, hilariously, if your concern is that we have become a nation of "pussies," traditional views of masculinity and "tough frontier manliness" do not include people so desperate to cling to their obscene luxury that the throw pee-pants temper tantrums we people suggest increasing the top marginal tax rate by a few percentage points.

 

[Resume]

Obviously, I'm oversimplifying here, but I don't think that it's too far away from the way a lot of Americans feel -especially the successful ones. So that's basically where the "straw man" comes from.

What do you mean by successful?

 

[xjx388]

You would be really, really wrong. Google this article and author and look at the hundreds of fawning references:


- See more at: http://www.commonsenseevaluation.co...ion-of-the-western-male/#sthash.KI0yDUpw.dpuf

Yes, yes, "real" conservatives, blah blah.

It's a sad myth, both factually incorrect and morally deplorable. But, hilariously, if your concern is that we have become a nation of "pussies," traditional views of masculinity and "tough frontier manliness" do not include people so desperate to cling to their obscene luxury that the throw pee-pants temper tantrums we people suggest increasing the top marginal tax rate by a few percentage points.

And you think this essay represents the core of conservative thought or something? No, it doesn't. I consider myself conservative and found that essay very, very stupid.

 

[xjx388]

What do you mean by successful?

I mean someone who actually did work hard to get where they are and are financially secure.

 

[Resume]

I mean someone who actually did work hard to get where they are and are financially secure.

Many, many U.S. citizens fit that criteria and in no way support your hypothesis. You are correct in that you are oversimplifying.

 

[Tommy Jeppesen]

I mean someone who actually did work hard to get where they are and are financially secure.

Are there humans, who can't work hard? If yes, how do you then explain that?

Can all hard-working humans become financially secure? If yes, then please give evidence.

 

[TraneWreck]

And you think this essay represents the core of conservative thought or something? No, it doesn't. I consider myself conservative and found that essay very, very stupid.

Right, obvious response is obvious - No True Scotsman, and that.

Yes, I think that represents an opinion widely held on the right. The reason I brought it up is because someone voiced it here.

I would be willing to wager that there is a close correlation between belief that America is becoming too "womanly" and support for Trump, and Republicans, in general.

 

[xjx388]

Many, many U.S. citizens fit that criteria and in no way support your hypothesis. You are correct in that you are oversimplifying.

My intention was not to paint every successful person with a broad brush. The OP asked a question and I'm attempting to give an answer -insight into the average conservative's mind as to why Venezuela=All socialism is bad.

In a nutshell: Conservatives, especially those with higher incomes, see the "progressive" push as thinly-veiled Socialism a la USSR, Venezuela, etc. which has lead to corruption and failure.

BTW, I never said this was my personal view.

 

[jimbob]

It amuses that conservatives have adopted this notion that being a selfish ass is "manly."

Self-sacrifice is traditionally the virtue that represents a manly-man. If there's suffering to be done, let me take it on because I'm *********** macho and I can handle it.

John Wayne steps in to engage in the gun battle to save someone from having to go through it. When it's cold, a manly man passes the blanket to the children because he can endure. When food is short, it goes to the pregnant woman.

It what perverse universe are the tough guys the one's who cravenly cling to their creature comforts while others suffer?

I think that stereotype can be perceived from many different viewpoints. Is it self-sacrifice? Or is it taking responsibility for personal failings?

In any case, I don't think that "being a manly-man" is the ideology behind conservative thinking.

Please. There's nothing more pathetic than listening to million and billionaires whine about their tax rate when people in this country don't have health care, homes, and adequate nutrition.

This kind of thinking is perceived as "jealousy" or "laziness." The idea being that those who are needy are needy because they don't want to work hard and want others to provide for them. "Hey, the rich have enough money; it's not fair that they hoard it all!"

Good or bad all depends on your personal viewpoint. In the US, the prevailing viewpoint has always been to pull yourself up by the bootstraps; i.e., take personal responsibility for your success or failure. Welfare states have been seen as very bad things. For example, I grew up thinking some things about the Soviet Union, based on family talks and media coverage, that I don't even know how true some of it was. The gist of it was this: The USSR took control of all industries and tried to provide everything to everyone. They controlled what career you were going to have, how much food you got, where you lived . . . all in the name of equality and doing what was best for the society as a whole. But humans are humans and it was corrupt; those in power lived better than the regular people. When it failed, it was seen as, "See! Socialism cannot work!"

Now you have our own government slowly taking over more and more of our personal lives. Common Core, Single-Payer, paid-for college, income equality . . . it all feels like Socialism and we know Socialism can't work because the USSR failed and countries like Greece are failing. The Bootstrap philosophy is what "Made America Great."

Obviously, I'm oversimplifying here, but I don't think that it's too far away from the way a lot of Americans feel -especially the successful ones. So that's basically where the "straw man" comes from.

I agree with the highlighted part, but do wonder whether this has been historically used as an excuse for the poor performance of Blacks post slavery. That way a person could avoid feeling bad about the fact that through segregation, many blacks alive today have had a disadvantageous start in life by being officially discriminated against when they were young.

Given how wealth is preserved in both the US and the UK, this narrative, whilst attractive, isn't that convincing

 

[xjx388]

Are there humans, who can't work hard? If yes, how do you then explain that?

Can all hard-working humans become financially secure? If yes, then please give evidence.

Well, I never said that this view represented reality, only a conservative perception of reality. But from the "average conservative" viewpoint, I'll answer your questions:

Yes, there are people who cannot work hard. That's what a social safety net is for. But it's also the responsibility of the family to help care for those that can't provide for themselves. Society -i.e. the Government- cannot and should not take care of every single need such a person would have. The deterioration of the family unit is a very bad thing.

Every human who works hard can become financially secure. There are plenty of examples of this all around you. Many times, people who are perfectly capable of becoming successful put obstacles in their own path: they choose drugs, they have kids too young, they don't take school or work seriously, they have unrealistic goals, etc. Working hard also means working smart.

 

[funk de fino]

Well, I never said that this view represented reality, only a conservative perception of reality. But from the "average conservative" viewpoint, I'll answer your questions:

Yes, there are people who cannot work hard. That's what a social safety net is for. But it's also the responsibility of the family to help care for those that can't provide for themselves. Society -i.e. the Government- cannot and should not take care of every single need such a person would have. The deterioration of the family unit is a very bad thing.

Every human who works hard can become financially secure. There are plenty of examples of this all around you. Many times, people who are perfectly capable of becoming successful put obstacles in their own path: they choose drugs, they have kids too young, they don't take school or work seriously, they have unrealistic goals, etc. Working hard also means working smart.

Ah yes, the same conservatives who claim to be Christian. I've met a lot of those asshats in Texas.

 

[Resume]

My intention was not to paint every successful person with a broad brush . . . In a nutshell: Conservatives, especially those with higher incomes, see the "progressive" push as thinly-veiled Socialism a la USSR, Venezuela, etc. which has lead to corruption and failure.

Yes, and this viewpoint is myopic and dishonest.

 

[logger]

Then what's your solution to poor people suffering in countries where there's not than enough resources for everyone to live comfortably?

Do we ignore them and hope they go away?

Do we laugh at them for being poor?

Education?
Did you really not know that?
And who said people have to live comfortably?

 

[logger]

It amuses that conservatives have adopted this notion that being a selfish ass is "manly."

Interesting, I would say it's incredibly selfish for a man to allow others to take care of him or his family. We just have different definitions of what it means to be manly.