The Biblical Realities of Hell

[Marcus]

According to the New Testament, Jesus Christ said "I am truth."
Whatever else you may say about it, that is either true or false, and any and every argument that you or I or anyone may proffer makes no difference to that stark statement.

"The sun will not rise tomorrow." That statement is either true or false, any argument that you may proffer makes no difference to that stark statement. Your position, which I have parroted here, is true but meaningless. The information that a statement is either true or false is trivially true.

That is all well and good, but it has absolutely zero bearing on the truth of what I said that you apparently entirely side-stepped to avoid. So again, like it or not, as I said in simple and obvious truth, regardless of how uncomfortable it may make you feel:

Nothing you have said makes me uncomfortable, sorry. Your need to feel satisfaction from a statement equivalent to "water is wet" is more a source of amusement.

Regardless of how certainly one may think that hell is fiction, the simple, ultimate and undeniable truth is that we cannot absolutely know what is beyond death until we ourselves are beyond death. Certainty either way is belief, it is faith, not knowledge.

I am not claiming certainty, any more than I can be certain that the sun will shine tomorrow. Hell is extremely unlikely because there is no plausible mechanism, and no good evidence for its existence. Anecdotes and fables from a book are very weak evidence.

Define "evidence." Contrast it with "proof" if you can.

I don't see the point in spoon feeding you such basic information, I'll leave you to look it up.

I don't know about any "favorite claims of theists," but some here are clearly very bothered by anything God, and they frequently post their very-bothered postings accordingly. I have never posted thousands of times against something I didn't believe in or care about? Have you? I'm certainly not troubled by anything I do not believe in. Are you?
You should read more here. Lots of vitriol to counter your yet again point.

You seem very bothered by the lack of evidence for your beliefs, so much so that you are spending your time posting on a skeptics board.

That's a good thing, though, we need theists here, it would be boring simply agreeing with each other. I disagree with your interpetation of "vitriol", I see spirited discussion, and indeed some people are mad at religion for duping so many people, but no one is mad at God, because you can't be mad at a fictional entity, any more than you could be mad at the tooth fairy.

I do care about the millions of people being duped into believing supernatural fantasies. I welcome theists posts, as I have said, and i am not bothered, or feel anger, but more a feeling of compassion, I know how easy it is for even intelligent people to fall for irrational beliefs.

 

[slingblade]

You should read more here. Lots of vitriol to counter your yet again point.

You should read more here. The vitriol you detect is directed at human beings, not at gods.

I cannot be angry at something that doesn't exist. I might be angry about it, but not angry at it. This is an essential distinction. You should make an effort to grasp it.

 

[edge]

I don't follow. What does that have to do with my analogy on personal revelation or its relation to the doctrine of predestination?

If you have free will to choose between good and evil, and it is the heart of original sin how can there be predestination?

My point is that there are two types of spiritual beings, from my perspective.
If a person is predestined like Jesus, to succeed and one has failed God like Satan.
Then it follows what you choose is what your predestined for.
Now which one is your God?

Are some more predestined to follow one or another?
It is a question of who has the more convincing power in this world.
God chooses to hold off while the other is not bound by his ways, he has been let loose in the world.
God has separated himself from the world of sin, for now.

Only the one true God knows this, and it probably is a major headache and heartache of who will succeed and who won’t.

The best thing I can tell you is as I described earlier, you are allowed to test the spirits.
And you have one to test, a soul/spirit.
It doesn’t matter who's right or wrong if it is a false thing from the devil to deceive you or if it's real and true revelation from God.
It will prove the spirituality of this world.

Once you know that you witnessed a real event you’ll understand.
What you’ll understand is, it is like it describes but it is also very much unknown.

So all can be saved.

So he could be playing parts of our lives over and over in different ways, means, knowing that the ones that are predestined to keep the faith no matter what…. they won’t fall so as to allow the disbeliever who was and is in close contact to the believer many chances to come around.
Many stories have used this concept.

So when we claim that the scripture clearly teaches predestination it then must follow that it clearly teaches "double predestination". You can not embrace one without the other. Since God elects one this then means he does not elect another. Yet, most Christian's today do not even know that such clear truth exists within the pages of Holy Writ. So the hardening that Paul portrays in this passage in his letter to the Romans is a sovereign act of God that is not caused by anything in those individuals who are hardened.
Douglas Moo, a well noted theologian, has plummeted the mainstream consensus with his latest commentary on Romans and states;
"It seems then that this text, in its context, provides important exegetical support for the controversial doctrine of "double predestination": just as God decides, on the basis of nothing but his own sovereign pleasure, to bestow his grace and so save some individuals, so he also decides, on the basis of nothing but his own sovereign pleasure, to pass over others."
"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Rom 9:22-24 RSV)

http://www.unionlife.org/Predestination.htm

But he still gives you the choice to change, the reason for Jesus.
The thing he has wrong up there in that quote is it’s not for nothing it’s about choice what do you want to be?

If he made vessels to fail then they must be soulless.
Remember Paul said What if?

Why go through all that and not just show us what glory is?

There would be no need for faith and that would have us all be robots I think.
I think it’s more like witnessing for God because of who and what you believed before any personal revelation

As in, I knew him before he turned Christian I can’t believe he’s one now.
What made him change he was an atheistic redneck who did all these bad things like????

Let’s ask him what made him change his mind.
And most of you will say, it’s second hand so it can’t be proof but for that person it’s all he needs to acknowledge God/Jesus and for others it will be an authentication of God.

For some it will help them cross that line or not, you ether accept it as confirmation or not.
So then it will take some thing else for the hard-core atheist or not.
Right now no one is in the pit, not the fallen, not any one.
Some of the really bad fallen are in darkness according to Enoch.
Ansd some that come back and are changed from NDE discribe what it's like to be in that same darkness.
Seperated.

 

[edge]

That shows you that you don't know where the real power for that to work comes from. The power comes from the shuttle motion, has the wire cuts thru the magnetic field and power is made it will put a drag the shuttle and it will slow down and sometime later rockets will have to be used to speed it up again. There is no free lunch.

Paul

The theory is correct though we can and more than they expected the reason the wire fried it's self.
We have to just figure out the right way.
They couldn't go to the moon in a Mercury capsule.
It all depends on profit or not.

 

[edge]

It is a fallacy to think that just because two options exist, they must be given equal weight. There is a chance that the sun won't shine tomorrow, but this option does not enjoy equal standing with the chance that it will.Faith is based on something, it is based on traditional superstition, fantasy, wishful thinking, respect for the claims of authority figures, altered brain states, all kinds of things. It is blind because not only is evidence not involved, it is spurned as unneccessary. This last is a favorite claim for theists, but I have yet to meet my first angry atheist, and there is certainly no evidence of anger towards religion on this thread.

I would also like to point out, yet again, that I don't believe it is possible to be angry at an entity that you don't believe exists.

In bold above that's a lie, all the really angry stuff has been moved out of this thread to the thread or part of the forum called, Abandon all hope, you have to do a search to get to it, in here.

The rest of what you got up there is your wishful thinking to keep yourself right where you are.
Ask some one if they think it was a mental state or a mind that helps them come back when they were pronounced dead for longer that a half hour.

Are the machines that medical science use flawed or undependable?
This would mean that science is undependable.
Or it's been over ridden by another power.

If it’s not another power that over rides them we have buried many people that would have come back.

 

[edge]

You should read more here. The vitriol you detect is directed at human beings, not at gods.

I cannot be angry at something that doesn't exist. I might be angry about it, but not angry at it. This is an essential distinction. You should make an effort to grasp it.

Prove that it doesn't exist.
At it, about it, all word salad.

You are an angry soul, why?
Because there's no true justice in this world, but that's what we wanted from the beginning, the original sin, God let us continue because we wanted it this way.
It is the heart of original sin that runs this world.

 

[Mashuna]

Prove that it doesn't exist.
At it, about it, all word salad.

You are an angry soul, why?
Because there's no true justice in this world, but that's what we wanted from the beginning, the original sin, God let us continue because we wanted it this way.
It is the heart of original sin that runs this world.

The distinction is clear. People generally aren't angry at God, as there is no evidence that God exists. Religion exists, and people who do terrible things in the name of God. It's entirely reasonable to be angry at them.

 

[Ladewig]

The theory is correct though we can and more than they expected the reason the wire fried it's self.
We have to just figure out the right way.
They couldn't go to the moon in a Mercury capsule.
It all depends on profit or not.

Again. I want to make a request in the politest possible way. Please proofread your posts to make sure they are clear and understandable.

 

[Ladewig]

In bold above that's a lie, all the really angry stuff has been moved out of this thread to the thread or part of the forum called, Abandon all hope, you have to do a search to get to it, in here.

The rest of what you got up there is your wishful thinking to keep yourself right where you are.
Ask some one if they think it was a mental state or a mind that helps them come back when they were pronounced dead for longer that a half hour.

Are the machines that medical science use flawed or undependable?
This would mean that science is undependable.

technically, it would not come anywhere close to meaning science was undependable. It would mean that some technologies are undependable.

Or it's been over ridden by another power.

If it’s not another power that over rides them we have buried many people that would have come back.

I think you are trying to say that there have been patients who have flatlined for a half hour and have then come back to life. First question: do you have any tangible evidence of that claim. A half-hour is a long time. Are you talking about people with drastically reduced body temperatures? Are you talking about people who weren't hooked up to EEGs or EKGs and were mistakenly declared dead?

Second question: why ask them anything? Why do you think that when a person experiences temporary brain death that that person is somehow qualified to give an accurate explanation of what happened? Countless experiments have recreated all the symptoms described in near-death experiences (NDEs) and we can easily document all the things a patient experiences as less and less blood reaches the brain. See a light or a tunnel is NOT evidence that a light or tunnel exists beyond this world.

 

[slingblade]

There would be no need for faith and that would have us all be robots I think.

From that whole post, this is one point I'd like to take on. Not because Edge makes it, but because it gets made so often, by so many, and it's wrong.

I had a mother. She was very real, and very present in my life. She taught me her moral code, and helped me develop my sense of right and wrong. She had rules for me, with rewards if I obeyed, and punishments if I did not. I loved my mother, and had no doubt that she loved me.

And yet, in spite of my having the actual, physical presence of my mother in my life, I still managed to disobey her, to break her rules, and to disregard her authority from time to time.

How could I do that, while knowing for certain that my mother exists, that she has rules, that she has punished me for disobedience in the past, and that she will punish me for it again, if I didn't have the freedom of my own will?

In point of fact, it is robotic to obey what you are only told by other people are the commands of a being whose actual existence you cannot verify in any way.

If I don't know for a fact who is giving the orders, if I have no chance to confront this being, to question it and get a response, and if I obey what other people tell me it says it wants from me, I truly am a robot. I don't get to exercise my free will at all.

In order to have any semblance of so-called** "free will," there is no need for faith. Faith actually abrogates whatever free will we may have.

(**the existence of which is, of course, an argument that has been made in other, older threads, many times before. )

 

[Ladewig]

I don't know about any "favorite claims of theists," but some here are clearly very bothered by anything God, and they frequently post their very-bothered postings accordingly. I have never posted thousands of times against something I didn't believe in or care about? Have you? I'm certainly not troubled by anything I do not believe in. Are you?
You should read more here. Lots of vitriol to counter your yet again point.

Stop pretending to be obtuse. You can read this forum for years and never find complaints against the Amish or the God that the Amish worship. The reason is that the Amish don't go out of the way to influence the lives of non-believers.
They don't knock on doors looking for converts.
They don't send lobbyists to Washington to create morality laws.
They don't secretly run for positions on school boards so that they can insert religious dogma into science classes.
They don't tell pollsters that atheists are less trustworthy than Muslims (who are less trustworthy than Christians).
They don't publicly describe Hindus as demon worshipers.
They don't threaten to protest outside of a Islamic community center in lower Manhattan.
They don't label said community center "the victory mosque."
They don't accuse a Christian president of being a secret Muslim.
They don't accuse Islam of trying to destroy America and everything that America holds dear.
They don't say that Asia is a place where "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."
They don't say we needn't worry about the long-term impact of our energy policy because the Rapture is imminent.
They don't try to cure homosexuals.
They don't claim that American law is based on the Ten Commandments.
They don't try to convince others that they, alone, know which parts of the Bible are God's literal words and which parts of the Bible are man-made or metaphorical or outdated.
They don't make outrageously offensive claims such as a earthquake hit Haiti because the God of infinite love who considers us His precious children was unhappy with the Haitian people.
They don't watch Teletubbies and speculate as to whether a purple purse is a sign of gays trying to recruit children to the lifestyle.

It's God's followers that cause us consternation.

 

[slingblade]

Prove that it doesn't exist.

Why?

Never mind the fact that the burden of proof is on the positive claim, not the negative one. Forget that, for the moment.

Why should I prove it? Why do you make this demand of me? For what specific purpose?

Do you want to see if I can convince you? I've no interest in convincing you. Could you be convinced? Is there any argument, or series of arguments, I could make that you would consider proof?

At it, about it, all word salad.

Not at all. Surely your grasp of English isn't that poor?

"I am angry at your mother" does not convey the same meaning as "I am angry about your mother."

You are an angry soul, why?

You are a bitter soul, why?

Because there's no true justice in this world, but that's what we wanted from the beginning, the original sin, God let us continue because we wanted it this way.
It is the heart of original sin that runs this world.

Ah, if I could share a little personal story with you, I could easily dispute that.
I happen to have received a bit of long-overdue justice in the last 12 hours. Justice I definitely deserved. I'm not taking a great deal of pleasure in it, because getting my small measure of justice happens to be causing some innocent people a great deal of emotional pain. None of this was any of my doing; I am just on the sidelines, watching it play out, hearing about it from third parties.

I realize the story I'm not telling you would be just an anecdote, if indeed I were to tell it. I accept that, so please know that all I am saying is that I now have my own personal evidence that there can be justice in the world, and I've gotten a bit of my own back, finally. So,you may not know you're wrong, but I do know it. Sorry.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Prove that it doesn't exist.

Edge, please pick any god that you do not believe in and then prove that it does not exist. For that matter, prove that leprechauns, fairies or unicorns don't exist.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Because there's no true justice in this world, but that's what we wanted from the beginning, the original sin, God let us continue because we wanted it this way.
It is the heart of original sin that runs this world.

What we wanted? According to your fairy tale, we are all being punished for something that was done by a couple of people thousands of years ago. This sort of morality tale might make sense to a primitive tribe that believed that it was perfectly acceptable to hold someone responsible for the actions of long dead ancestors, but I find the whole notion as barbaric as buying and selling slaves and slaughtering people for worshiping different gods than you do.

 

[bikerdruid]

Edge, please pick any god that you do not believe in and then prove that it does not exist. For that matter, prove that leprechauns, fairies or unicorns don't exist.

let's make it even easier.....edge, please prove that zeus does not exist.

 

[Foster Zygote]

According to the New Testament, Jesus Christ said "I am truth."
Whatever else you may say about it, that is either true or false, and any and every argument that you or I or anyone may proffer makes no difference to that stark statement.

And I am now stating that I can shoot laser beams from my eyes and poop rolls of quarters. Whatever else you may say about it, that is either true or false, and any and every argument that you or I or anyone may proffer makes no difference to that stark statement.

I have never posted thousands of times against something I didn't believe in or care about? Have you? I'm certainly not troubled by anything I do not believe in. Are you?
You should read more here. Lots of vitriol to counter your yet again point.

When people stop trying to kill, oppress, and control other people because of religious beliefs, I will be far less concerned with the practice of religion.

 

[Marcus]

In bold above that's a lie, all the really angry stuff has been moved out of this thread to the thread or part of the forum called, Abandon all hope, you have to do a search to get to it, in here.

Actually, a lie would be if I was aware of these posts, I wasn't. AAH is easily available in the Members Only section, I will take your word that the angry posts are there rather than take the time to check it right now and stand corrected.

The rest of what you got up there is your wishful thinking to keep yourself right where you are.

This part is backwards, if I was inclined to wishful thinking, like everyone else I would love to have an eternity of bliss rather than death. In fact, all the idiocy and butt kissing that your deity demands would be a small price to pay. Pretending that such things exist, however, doesn't do anything for me.

Ask some one if they think it was a mental state or a mind that helps them come back when they were pronounced dead for longer that a half hour.

Some realize that they had an experience created by brain chemistry, others think they had a transcendental or religious experience, the nature of the experience being entirely dependent on the existing religion of the person.

Are the machines that medical science use flawed or undependable?
This would mean that science is undependable.

True. Medical science is not 100% successful.

Or it's been over ridden by another power.

False. Or if you want to be picky, overwhelmingly likely to be false, there is no good evidence for this assertion.

If it’s not another power that over rides them we have buried many people that would have come back.

Many people believe that they were saved by god, not giving credit to the doctors that brought them back from near death (they're called NDE's for a reason). Naturally god gets none of the blame when baby in the next room dies from the lack of this special favor.

 

[Marcus]

Prove that it doesn't exist.

You've been here a long time, Edge. You're supposed to know that you can't prove a negative, regardless of your religious beliefs.

 

[Paulhoff]

The theory is correct though we can and more than they expected the reason the wire fried it's self.
We have to just figure out the right way.
They couldn't go to the moon in a Mercury capsule.
It all depends on profit or not.

The wire fried because they pulled more current from it then the should have.

The power still comes from the shuttles movement, and that will have to be replaced with the rockets thrust. The power is still supplied by humans, not the earth’s magnetic field.

The Mercury capsule was in no way designed for that job, it was only a stepping stone to the moon.

Paul

 

[Paulhoff]

I find it very scary that adults can believe that two people who at the time of their so-called crime where found guilty when they had no idea of right from wrong. Before said apple, they didn’t know right from wrong, it is the same as a baby not knowing what hot means before it touches the hot stove. And then all that come after them are also guilty of that crime, oh please. And not only that, but the so-called maker, the one that sees all and knows all, didn’t see it coming and then blames them.

Why don’t you guys find a real god?

Paul