Subconsciousness and Humanity.

[dlorde]

Unless you are saying that there are no ruling class mega-rich individuals, families, corporations etc which have survived and prospered over various periods of time, then it can be speculated that an unknown number of these are involved in some form of support for future Agenda which would naturally include support for nurturing the fact of Human Consciousness and investing in ways that look the most promising in achieving this thing.

If you can agree with this speculation as being possible, you would also understand how the evidence for such speculation would be extremely hard to obtain, otherwise you would either find it yourself or provide advise on how this information might be obtained.


If you cannot agree that this speculation is at all possible it would have to be because of something else other than that you have seen no evidence to say that these people exist and are involved in any way with supporting the sciences which are developing instrumentation designed to assist Consciousness into surviving and prospering exploring, utilising and populating the Galaxy.

Sounds like a 'Bilderberg Group' style conspiracy theory... Shouldn't it be in the CT forum?

...so what do you think they are doing with their wealth and social positions?

Getting a power buzz, nepotism, & having fun?

 

[Loss Leader]

It is easy enough to speculate on evidence available to whoever wants to find it.

But you claim that your speculation is based on such evidence. Yet, you refuse to state what that evidence is.

If you can agree with this speculation as being possible, you would also understand how the evidence for such speculation would be extremely hard to obtain

So, you don't have evidence?

otherwise you would either find it yourself or provide advise on how this information might be obtained.

You want me to look for the evidence for you? No.

these people exist and are involved in any way with supporting the sciences which are developing instrumentation designed to assist Consciousness into surviving and prospering exploring, utilising and populating the Galaxy.

Rich people exist. Rich people have funded space exploration (though mostly through taxation). However, you said that there was some sort of collective unconscious agenda to do so. What is your evidence of that?

You know what? Never mind. I've heard enough. The evidence presented to me is that you have not backed up your assertions with any facts whatsoever. I have judged that your ideas are absolute unfettered nonsense - a fantasy narrative that pretends to give shape to the world. There is nothing more to pursue.

 

[Navigator]

Sounds like a 'Bilderberg Group' style conspiracy theory... Shouldn't it be in the CT forum?

Please explain.

Getting a power buzz, nepotism, & having fun?

Okay – we can go with that speculation.
Now, why wouldn’t those things be applicable to assisting Consciousness the way I have explained in this thread?

 

[JaysonR]

If anyone involved in the thread has the time, I think this lecture and discussion session has much to offer regarding this topic; mostly in the discussion section (the lecture section is also rather interesting, but if you want to just jump to the discussion section, go to "Chapter 12 - Discussion" in the chapter list below the video).

http://fora.tv/2011/11/02/David_Eagleman_Will_We_Ever_Understand_the_Brain

 

[Navigator]

But you claim that your speculation is based on such evidence. Yet, you refuse to state what that evidence is.

That is untrue.
Throughout this thread I have explained what that available evidence is and speculated what it shows us.

So, you don't have evidence?

As explained, that evidence is not available. That’s what having mega money and influence is able to achieve.

You want me to look for the evidence for you? No.

Ditto. That would be a waste of time. It matters not. These exist and even if nothing much is known about what they are involved with, and supporting it is fine to speculate that they are assisting the Nurturing of Consciousness and all that this involves.
The only other options are that they are working against such a thing – which cannot be the case because we all would still be in the ‘dark ages’ in a different world than the reality we are experiencing.

Rich people exist. Rich people have funded space exploration (though mostly through taxation). However, you said that there was some sort of collective unconscious agenda to do so. What is your evidence of that?

A speculation regarding Human Subconsciousnesss in relation to Human Life on Earth

No ones personal reality is a fair representation of what is actually real.

The only way to get a good overview of our shared reality is to examine Human systems as the Whole System.

Consciousness and thus Subconsciousness rides upon the wave of Human life, and in this manner, survives Individual Human death.

One estimate suggests that there about 250,000 - 300,000 people die per day.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_die_a_day

Another estimate suggests that there are approximately 370,000 babies born every day worldwide.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_babies_are_born_every_day_in_the_world.

It is not that hard really to understand how this has, is and will continue to happen.

You know what? Never mind. I've heard enough. The evidence presented to me is that you have not backed up your assertions with any facts whatsoever. I have judged that your ideas are absolute unfettered nonsense - a fantasy narrative that pretends to give shape to the world. There is nothing more to pursue.

You can live and die having no regard for how the world is shaping and why this is so, and it won't make a difference to that world and its Agenda in preserving and nurturing Consciousness etc.

 

[dlorde]

Please explain.

Try this. The CT forum is the Conspiracy Theory forum.

Okay – we can go with that speculation.
Now, why wouldn’t those things be applicable to assisting Consciousness the way I have explained in this thread?

The null hypothesis is that there is no such effect such as you describe; so you tell me - it's your speculative hypothesis, seemingly unsupported by any evidence you are willing to post here.

Also, perhaps you could answer the question I asked earlier:

In what way is what you've been describing more than, "humans are a curious and exploratory species and off-planet exploration seems a natural extension of this"?

 

[Navigator]

Try this. The CT forum is the Conspiracy Theory forum.

But it is pertinently obvious I am not claiming in this thread any Conspiracy is happening. Even the name of the thread doesn't fit normal conspiracy headings.

So why did you even suggest this?

The null hypothesis is that there is no such effect such as you describe; so you tell me - it's your speculative hypothesis, seemingly unsupported by any evidence you are willing to post here.

It is a bit hard to do. I say the Subconscious exists and that there are ways in which one can consciously communicate with it.
Others disagree.

Ideomotor effect is not taken seriously as a useful tool for measuring and investigation.

In what way is what you've been describing more than, "humans are a curious and exploratory species and off-planet exploration seems a natural extension of this"?

I am not.
Unless in that I am saying the whole human thing is propelled by Subconsciousness and that every human invention which propels us towards this goal is inspired by Subconsciousness...I am saying that even curiosity and desire to explore is propelled by Subconsciousness. I am saying that every experience you ever have is known more intimately by Subconsciousness than the Consciousness aspect that you think you are.

Then in that way I am describing ‘more than’ "humans are a curious and exploratory species and off-planet exploration seems a natural extension of this"

Can I prove that to you? Can I prove that to 3 people or three thousand or three million?
Nope.
Does this mean that my speculations are incorrect?

 

[dlorde]

But it is pertinently obvious I am not claiming in this thread any Conspiracy is happening. Even the name of the thread doesn't fit normal conspiracy headings.

What is said in a thread is often unrelated to the thread title.

So why did you even suggest this?

Because you said "...ruling class mega-rich individuals, families, corporations etc which have survived and prospered over various periods of time ... it can be speculated that an unknown number of these are involved in some form of support for future Agenda...". This has more than a passing resemblance to the type of conspiracy theories I mentioned (an assembly of the rich and powerful conspiring to further some special agenda).

It is a bit hard to do. I say the Subconscious exists and that there are ways in which one can consciously communicate with it.
Others disagree.

I don't think the majority here would argue that the subconscious (in the sense of brain activity of which we are not consciously aware) doesn't exist - we are obviously not consciously aware of most brain activity. I suspect what they disagree with is your apparent characterisation of conscious and subconscious as if they separate entities. Consciousness is a product of the temporary integration and coordination of otherwise unconscious or pre-conscious processes, it's the unconscious becoming consciously aware. The subconscious is all those brain activities not directly involved in, or accessible to, consciousness.

Ideomotor effect is not taken seriously as a useful tool for measuring and investigation.

You think so? what about 'Research Methods Laboratory Manual for Psychology' By William Langston, and the descriptions in Review of Contemporary Ideomotor Theory. It has it's uses, but there are often better ways of studying subconscious behaviours.

In what way is what you are describing more than <description>

I am not.

Unless in that I am saying the whole human thing is propelled by Subconsciousness and that every human invention which propels us towards this goal is inspired by Subconsciousness...I am saying that even curiosity and desire to explore is propelled by Subconsciousness. I am saying that every experience you ever have is known more intimately by Subconsciousness than the Consciousness aspect that you think you are.

The brain is the source of our behaviours, the majority of which are below conscious awareness; our behavioural motivations for the most part originate below conscious awareness; in suggesting the subconscious is the driver of fundamental human behaviours you seem to be stating the blindingly obvious as if it is some kind of major insight and the 'Subconscious' is some mysterious hidden entity. Perhaps you don't mean it to sound that way, but in that case, why say it at all? Your subconscious is you, your consciousness is the sense of self that it generates.

... in that way I am describing ‘more than’ "humans are a curious and exploratory species and off-planet exploration seems a natural extension of this"

You only seem to be adding that you feel this is 'propelled' by the 'Subconscious', which, translated to everyday parlance, says our basic drives originate below conscious awareness, which is not news to anyone.

 

[Dancing David]

I have defined Subconsciousness.

There is data and evidence for it, as defined by scientists.

Cite your sources and repeat your definition.

No it is NOT a concept with a scientific basis and you are just being vague, and bordering on just pretending.

Where is the exact data and evidence, I am familiar with psychology and anticipate your response with research based discussions.

 

[Dancing David]

It is easy enough to speculate on evidence available to whoever wants to find it.

Evidence of subconsciousness and its effects: lacking.

 

[Dancing David]

I have defined Subconsciousness.

There is data and evidence for it, as defined by scientists.



Some has been posted already in this thread by JasonR - other evidence can be obtained on the internet.

Edit: Not so - JasonR posted his evidence in "The Power of Prayer Thread." - my bad.

Nope we asked you for your evidence, so where is the research and data exactly, the stuff you claim exists.

Vague hand wave noted.

 

[Dancing David]

That is untrue.
Throughout this thread I have explained what that available evidence is and speculated what it shows us.



As explained, that evidence is not available. That’s what having mega money and influence is able to achieve.




Ditto. That would be a waste of time. It matters not. These exist and even if nothing much is known about what they are involved with, and supporting it is fine to speculate that they are assisting the Nurturing of Consciousness and all that this involves.
The only other options are that they are working against such a thing – which cannot be the case because we all would still be in the ‘dark ages’ in a different world than the reality we are experiencing.



A speculation regarding Human Subconsciousnesss in relation to Human Life on Earth

No ones personal reality is a fair representation of what is actually real.

The only way to get a good overview of our shared reality is to examine Human systems as the Whole System.

Consciousness and thus Subconsciousness rides upon the wave of Human life, and in this manner, survives Individual Human death.

One estimate suggests that there about 250,000 - 300,000 people die per day.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_die_a_day

Another estimate suggests that there are approximately 370,000 babies born every day worldwide.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_babies_are_born_every_day_in_the_world.

It is not that hard really to understand how this has, is and will continue to happen.








You can live and die having no regard for how the world is shaping and why this is so, and it won't make a difference to that world and its Agenda in preserving and nurturing Consciousness etc.

So no data on the subconscious, no data on the effects of the subconscious, no data on the agenda.

So, all you have is empty rhetoric?

 

[Dancing David]

It is a bit hard to do. I say the Subconscious exists and that there are ways in which one can consciously communicate with it.
Others disagree.

Ideomotor effect is not taken seriously as a useful tool for measuring and investigation.

Notable lack of data and evidence.

I am not.
Unless in that I am saying the whole human thing is propelled by Subconsciousness and that every human invention which propels us towards this goal is inspired by Subconsciousness...

Notable lack of data and evidence.

I am saying that even curiosity and desire to explore is propelled by Subconsciousness.

Notable lack of data and evidence.

I am saying that every experience you ever have is known more intimately by Subconsciousness than the Consciousness aspect that you think you are.

Notable lack of data and evidence.

Then in that way I am describing ‘more than’ "humans are a curious and exploratory species and off-planet exploration seems a natural extension of this"

Can I prove that to you? Can I prove that to 3 people or three thousand or three million?
Nope.
Does this mean that my speculations are incorrect?

Notable lack of data and evidence.

 

[Navigator]

Thank you for those links dlorde – I will examine the data re the studies of Ideomotor therein when I have the time.

I don't think the majority here would argue that the subconscious (in the sense of brain activity of which we are not consciously aware) doesn't exist - we are obviously not consciously aware of most brain activity. I suspect what they disagree with is your apparent characterisation of conscious and subconscious as if they separate entities. Consciousness is a product of the temporary integration and coordination of otherwise unconscious or pre-conscious processes, it's the unconscious becoming consciously aware. The subconscious is all those brain activities not directly involved in, or accessible to, consciousness.

As I have said, the Subconsciousness aspect worked with the Consciousness aspect which included belief systems and even used those belief systems as a way of helping the Consciousness redefine and eventually let go most of them, and that it was also able to show through this process that it was able to act many roles and assist the Consciousness more thoroughly and deeply than a psychiatrist because it was in the exact position to be able to do so due to its deep and penetrating knowledge of its Conscious aspect – Subconsciousness know that aspect far better than Consciousness knows itself.

Since this is the case with everyone [assumption] if ones Consciousness were to enter into a relationship with ones Subconsciousness, even realising this was their intent to begin with, they would still be faced with the necessary illusion that they were engaging with a separate entity because Subconsciousness is simply a mystery and the bonding of those two aspects into an inseparable relationship simply takes time and sincere effort and there is no way for Consciousness to recognise immediately that aspect of itself previously unknown, as being anything other than a stranger to it.

Even from what you have said regarding your and many peoples understanding of Subconsciousness, it might very difficult in that case for you to appreciate that Subconsciousness is not just something which is the sum total of all those brain activities, but is also able to commune with the Consciousness and the depth and intimacy of that ability and communion is something that cannot be fully appreciated by anyone who has not taken the opportunity to experience for themselves.

It is truly astounding and expressions such as ‘being in love’ spring to mind to approximate the nature of that experience.

The brain is the source of our behaviours, the majority of which are below conscious awareness; our behavioural motivations for the most part originate below conscious awareness; in suggesting the subconscious is the driver of fundamental human behaviours you seem to be stating the blindingly obvious as if it is some kind of major insight and the 'Subconscious' is some mysterious hidden entity. Perhaps you don't mean it to sound that way, but in that case, why say it at all? Your subconscious is you, your consciousness is the sense of self that it generates.

Our behaviours can be the product of misinformation in this regard. Consciousness is what gives authority to our behaviour and while we might be propelled by Subconscious motivation, to act as say...a mass murderer, a con artist, a bully, or any other thing which seeks to ruin and disrupt the external world in a Conscious manner is not the product of Subconscious instruction but of Conscious instruction which is not even aware of its subconscious aspect let alone in any particular relationship with it.

The Subconsciousness can play more of a part in the less fundamental human behaviours, but even those behaviours are misinterpreted by Consciousness and even blamed/credited on/to the Subconsciousness {The devil made me do it/God told me to do it}.

In those terms, YOU is generally seen as Consciousness. But as we are both saying, it is Subconsciousness which is really the closer representation of who YOU (I WE) really are, and the Consciousness acts as a wall or curtain or drawbridge in relation to Subconsciousness and is the Actor, or the acting agent of free will.

What we are not both agreeing on is that the real YOU (Subconsciousness) is more than just some aspect of the self which has to remain a mystery while the Consciousness is that which the sense of self the Subconsiousness generates.

The Subconsiousness is of itself fully knowing of its sense of self independent of the Consciousness, and is largely ignored by the Consciousness and does not consider its Conscious aspect to be who it is or some representation of who it is, in terms of self identity.

It is Consciousness which is by far the more ignorant in it definitions of SELF, and thus is also ignorant in its definitions of everything else, including Subconsciousness.

 

[dlorde]

Wow... after that, all I can say is that you really need to read up on the last 10 years of brain research. A pretty good introduction to the brain and the development of consciousness is Damasio's 'Self Comes To Mind', and the best work on intuitive (subconscious) vs deliberative (conscious) thinking is Kahnemann's 'Thinking, Fast and Slow' (I think I've mentioned this one before).

You seem to have tried to use introspection to develop a personal model of brain function and consciousness that simply doesn't match what empirical research has shown to be the case.

 

[Manopolus]

Hmm... the O.P. reminds me of thoughts I've had regarding the observer effect and a certain cat in a box. It does seem possible, especially considering weird mutations of memory, that one person's path from the past to the present didn't necessarily exist in the same version of reality as another's if one uses the multiverse model and assumes that they (dimensions? realities?) all sort of exist in the same place, but not the same reality. In such a model, the "actual" past supported by physical evidence would not be decided until we sought evidence outside of pure memory -- sort of like Schrodinger's cat, and may be oddly dependent upon who does the original research.

Then again, I do get overly creative sometimes. I do not claim it as truth. I am merely prone to weird speculations.

 

[dlorde]

Hmm... the O.P. reminds me of thoughts I've had regarding the observer effect and a certain cat in a box. It does seem possible, especially considering weird mutations of memory, that one person's path from the past to the present didn't necessarily exist in the same version of reality as another's if one uses the multiverse model and assumes that they (dimensions? realities?) all sort of exist in the same place, but not the same reality. In such a model, the "actual" past supported by physical evidence would not be decided until we sought evidence outside of pure memory -- sort of like Schrodinger's cat, and may be oddly dependent upon who does the original research.

Then again, I do get overly creative sometimes. I do not claim it as truth. I am merely prone to weird speculations.

Conditional solipsism?

 

[Dancing David]

The term 'Subconsciousness' is the reification of a verb, a set of actions.

Navigator, you have yet to define it coherently or shown any of your alleged speculations concerning it to have any basis is fact.

 

[Navigator]

Existing After Brain Death.

We know that when the brain dies, it starts to seriously decay and through that process become part of the Earth.

Not that it ever wasn’t.

What we don’t know is whether Consciousness/Subconsicousness continues to exist independently of the brain which birthed it.

In this regard, while it is obvious the human imagination can and does branch off into all sorts off explanations for what such a thing might be like, for the most part this distraction accounts for nothing in particular.

We don’t know, so no point is speculating about those things.

However, we also don’t know with any certainty that as a natural part of the evolution of biological life forms with accompanying brains and Consciousness/Subconsciousness that these cannot continue on without brains.

We don’t and cannot know.

The closer we become to knowing and understanding everything the more we can say that we know.

Until such a time, we don’t know – especially when there is no way to measure.

We can measure Conscious interaction with the Physical Universe.

We can measure Subconscious interaction with the physical brain.

We can even measure Subconscious/Conscious interaction.

It is a touchy subject because there are many beliefs involved with this speculation and some think it is vitally important and others think it is not even an issue to discuss because there are far more important things to think about and agree upon.

To some it matters and to others it does not.

It is simply that it is unknown, and should be treated as such.

 

[tsig]

We know that when the brain dies, it starts to seriously decay and through that process become part of the Earth.

Not that it ever wasn’t.

What we don’t know is whether Consciousness/Subconsicousness continues to exist independently of the brain which birthed it.
In this regard, while it is obvious the human imagination can and does branch off into all sorts off explanations for what such a thing might be like, for the most part this distraction accounts for nothing in particular.

We don’t know, so no point is speculating about those things.

However, we also don’t know with any certainty that as a natural part of the evolution of biological life forms with accompanying brains and Consciousness/Subconsciousness that these cannot continue on without brains.

We don’t and cannot know.

The closer we become to knowing and understanding everything the more we can say that we know.

Until such a time, we don’t know – especially when there is no way to measure.

We can measure Conscious interaction with the Physical Universe.

We can measure Subconscious interaction with the physical brain.

We can even measure Subconscious/Conscious interaction.

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/885/ejtp.jpg

It is a touchy subject because there are many beliefs involved with this speculation and some think it is vitally important and others think it is not even an issue to discuss because there are far more important things to think about and agree upon.

To some it matters and to others it does not.

It is simply that it is unknown, and should be treated as such.

So you're really talking about what most people call a soul.