structural engineer charles pegelow

[eeyore1954]

Because I don't think he or the other firefighters would put out just the 78th floor fire and then leave.

So how do you feel he was able to determine the status of fire on all of the other floors and in fact also the entire 78th floor from his location. Was he able to see through the ceiling and walls

 

[MRC_Hans]

Thanks. That just confirms my point all the more so. A localized fire with much smoke, all within the top portion of the building.

You mean localized to the entire top portion of the building? Tell me, what, in your vocabulary, constitutes an extensive fire?

I'll say it again: You expect me to believe that THAT's what was responsible for a complete, near free-fall collapse?

No. Together with impact damage, THAT was responsible for a complete, appr. 70% of free-fall collapse.

The poster who mentioned other steel structures destroyed by fire: Yes, other steel buildings have burned a long time, making the structure sag enough that it was later decided to demolish the building. In that respect they have been "destroyed by fire." Show me another building that was destroyed like WTCs 1,2, and 7 by fire.

Show me another building like WTCs 1, 2 and 7 that has suffered structural damage plus extensive fire.

Say, I have this feeling of deja vú. Haven't you quys some new arguments? Some that haven't been debunked about a hundred times?

Hans

 

[eeyore1954]

Thanks. That just confirms my point all the more so. A localized fire with much smoke, all within the top portion of the building.

I'll say it again: You expect me to believe that THAT's what was responsible for a complete, near free-fall collapse?

The poster who mentioned other steel structures destroyed by fire: Yes, other steel buildings have burned a long time, making the structure sag enough that it was later decided to demolish the building. In that respect they have been "destroyed by fire." Show me another building that was destroyed like WTCs 1,2, and 7 by fire.

I don't expect you to believe it but anyone looking at it logically could be convinced. The fact that you call that a localize fire indicates you are not thinking logically. do you realize the scale of the picture and what people would say about that fire if was a stand alone building of 20 stories.

As Kookbreaker pointed out the Kader Toy Factory collapsed due to fire alone and rather quickly because it had unprotected steel. OF course I doubt if you believe the fireproofing could have been knocked off in the WTC towers.

 

[JimBenArm]

Because even if you believe the steel could have "weakened" the fire would have had to be a blazing hot one lasting many hours. Just look at the Madrid or Venezuela fires.

You know that based on what? Your experience? Knowledge gained on-the-job? Fairies told you?

Sheesh, just once I wish we'd get a troll here with an IQ higher than room temperature!

 

[PerryLogan]

Logan's Law: The dumber the conspiracy guy, the smarter he thinks he is.

 

[eeyore1954]

You know that based on what? Your experience? Knowledge gained on-the-job? Fairies told you?

Sheesh, just once I wish we'd get a troll here with an IQ higher than room temperature!

Fahrenheit or Celsius ?

 

[mailman]

my high school chemistry taught how an emanation of black smoke means it's a cool, oxygen-hungry fire.

Hmmmmmmm, really...these look like they are cool, oxygen starved fires dont they?

Mailman

 

[WildCat]

If the WTC had been hit at night you wouldn't hear the CT's claiming the fires were small and localized. Note every "comparison" fire pic they post was taken at night, while the WTC was burning in bright sunshine. It would have looked like a roman candle at night.

 

[JimBenArm]

Not above the flame zone.

Again, based on what?

 

[JimBenArm]

Thanks. That just confirms my point all the more so. A localized fire with much smoke, all within the top portion of the building.

I'll say it again: You expect me to believe that THAT's what was responsible for a complete, near free-fall collapse?

The poster who mentioned other steel structures destroyed by fire: Yes, other steel buildings have burned a long time, making the structure sag enough that it was later decided to demolish the building. In that respect they have been "destroyed by fire." Show me another building that was destroyed like WTCs 1,2, and 7 by fire.

Ding-ding-ding! We have another winner! Near free-fall!

Not just socks, but stinky socks!

 

[JimBenArm]

Fahrenheit or Celsius ?

Well, I should give them benefit of the doubt and go with Fahrenheit, but Celcius would probably be closer to the truth.

 

[Mancman]

In the 9/11 fires the windows were not broken by the heat (only by the aircraft impact) indicating a temperature below 700°C.

Has Pagelow even read the report he is attemping to critique?

According to the NIST report, WTC1 had 236 windows broken by the plane impact, and lost at least 1030 (yes, 1030) more during the fires. WTC2 lost 433 in the impact and a further 187 before it collapsed.

Comment on WTC1:

"The total number of windows opened by the fire is remarkable. The number increased by more than a factor of four as compared to the number of windows that were broken open immediately following the aircraft impact and subsequent fireballs. This represents an increased total open area of just over 8,200 ft2. This large area of open windows substantially increased the amount of outside air available for the fires. This suggests that there was a very strong interaction between the breaking open of the windows and the observed fire spread and growth behavior."

Have you read the reports, kameelyun?

I still see more smoke than fire in that picture. Also, you presented a very zoomed-in photo. And you expect me to believe that THAT localized fire caused the entire building to pulverize at near free-fall speed after burning for one hour?

Is a fire which was observed breaking through windows on floors 92-101 and 104 of WTC1, and floors 79-84 of WTC2, really localised?

Look at floors 96,97 and 98 in particular. They were almost entirely engulfed.

 

[WildCat]

Not just socks, but stinky socks!

All CT's regurgitate the same crap, I can't tell one from the other. The only thing for certain is that none will ever actually answer a question, nor acknowledge an error no matter how glaring.

 

[Architect]

Here is what Architect said on that thread, before he had read anything:



An opinion from a structural engineer, and he had written it off as "CT drivel" before he had read it.

I listened to Pegelow's internet/radio interview originally and posted comments some time again; essentially they were long on unsupported speculation and short on facts or calculations.

When he produces a detailed paper, like we would expect from engineers, then I shall be very pleased. In the interim all we have are the soundbites you post below.

 

[Spins]

1. If the World Trade Center (WTC) towers were designed to withstand multiple impacts by Boeing 707 aircraft, why did the impact of individual 767s cause so much damage?

2. Why did NIST not consider a "controlled demolition" hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation as it did for the "pancake theory" hypothesis? A key critique of NIST's work lies in the complete lack of analysis supporting a "progressive collapse" after the point of collapse initiation and the lack of consideration given to a controlled demolition hypothesis.

3. How could the WTC towers have collapsed without a controlled demolition since no steel-frame, high-rise buildings have ever before or since been brought down due to fires? Temperatures due to fire don't get hot enough for buildings to collapse.

4. Weren't the puffs of smoke that were seen, as the collapse of each WTC tower starts, evidence of controlled demolition explosions?

5. Why were two distinct spikes--one for each tower--seen in seismic records before the towers collapsed? Isn't this indicative of an explosion occurring in each tower?

6. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)--speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?

7a. How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren't hot enough to do so?
OR
7b. Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certified the steel in the WTC towers to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours, how could fires have impacted the steel enough to bring down the WTC towers?

8. We know that the sprinkler systems were activated because survivors reported water in the stairwells. If the sprinklers were working, how could there be a 'raging inferno' in the WTC towers?

9. If thick black smoke is characteristic of an oxygen-starved, lower temperature, less intense fire, why was thick black smoke exiting the WTC towers when the fires inside were supposed to be extremely hot?

10. Why were people seen in the gaps left by the plane impacts if the heat from the fires behind them was so excessive?

11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?

14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?

These questions were answered in the NIST FAQ...

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

 

[Gravy]

Nonetheless, if the tower was as blistering an inferno as it was, causing steel to fail and concrete to pulverize, Palmer wouldn't have made it to the 78th floor.

False. He used stairwell A, which was accessible at the opposite side of the building from the worst damage and fire. At 9:52 when he made his radio call, two floors above, the fire was so hot that molten material was flowing from the building. I'm sure you've seen those photos.

He also claimed that he would be able to put it out, implying that afterwords, the 79th-110th floors would be tackled.

You obviously haven't read the firefighters' accounts. The chiefs knew there was no chance to extinguish the fires. They told their men to assist in evacuation only.

None of the firefighters whose tapes have been released within the past year indicated any panic of an imminent collapse.

I hope you're learning something here. You are arguing from ignorance. Please stop.

FDNY Assistant Chief Joseph Callan : "Approximately 40 minutes after I arrived in the lobby, I made a decision that the building was no longer safe. And that was based on the conditions in the lobby, large pieces of plaster falling, all the 20 foot high glass panels on the exterior of the lobby were breaking. There was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason on the handy talky I gave the order for all Fire Department units to leave the north tower. FDNY Chief Joseph Callan
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Callan_Joseph.txt

CALLAN: For me to make the decision to take our firefighters out of the building with civilians still in it, that was very tough for me, but I did that because I did not think the building was safe any longer, and that was just prior to 9:30.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/11/se.41.html

I was in a discussion with Mr. Rotanz and I believe it was a representative from the Department of Buildings, but I'm not sure. Some engineer type person, and several of us were huddled talking in the lobby and it was brought to my attention, it was believed that the structural damage that was suffered to the towers was quite significant and they were very confident that the building's stability was compromised and they felt that the north tower was in danger of a near imminent collapse.

I grabbed EMT Zarrillo, I advised him of that information. I told him he was to proceed immediately to the command post where Chief Ganci was located. Told him where it was across the street from number 1 World Trade Center. I told him "You see Chief Ganci and Chief Ganci only. Provide him with the information that the building integrity is severely compromised and they believe the building is in danger of imminent collapse." So, he left off in that direction. –EMS Division Chief John Peruggia

Guys were giving us water, wet rags to put on our head, and we were standing there, and there was a cop I knew who came by and gave me a drink of water, and then as he was standing there, he said, "Aviation just reported that the north tower is leaning." I said, "Which way is it leaning?" He said,"This way." So we started to turn around walking. John Malley, who was right behind me, I turned around for him, because he was doing something, either putting his coat on or something, and as I was looking at him I heard the explosion, looked up, and saw like three floors explode, saw the antenna coming down, and turned around and ran north.

Q. About how long would you say it was from when the police officer told you it was leaning?

A. Within 30 seconds. –FDNY firefighter Kevin Gorman

Minutes after the south tower collapsed at the World Trade Center, police helicopters hovered near the remaining tower to check its condition. "About 15 floors down from the top, it looks like it's glowing red," the pilot of one helicopter, Aviation 14, radioed at 10:07 a.m. "It's inevitable."

Seconds later, another pilot reported: "I don't think this has too much longer to go. I would evacuate all people within the area of that second building." http://www.mishalov.com/wtc_rescueplan.html

Federal engineering investigators studying the destruction of the World Trade Center's twin towers on Sept. 11 said New York Police Department aviation units reported an inward bowing of the buildings' columns in the minutes before they collapsed, a signal they were about to fall.

The NYPD aviation unit reported critical information about the pending collapse of the building,'' said Sivaraj Shyam- Sunder, who heads the institute, at a press briefing in New York. ``Any time that information could have been communicated faster to the emergency responders in the buildings, it would have helped save lives.

According to Shyam-Sunder, the concave bowing of the steel was seen on the sides of the towers opposite where the planes hit them. At 10:06 a.m. that morning, an officer in a police helicopter reported that ``it's not going to take long before the north tower comes down.'' This was 20 minutes before it collapsed. In another radio transmission at 10:21 a.m., the officer said he saw buckling in the north tower's southern face, Shyam-Sunder said.
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aCuh.ATdfOXc&refer=top_world_news

With that as soon as I said that the building [north tower] made a groan like steel twisting. I didn’t have to tell those guys twice. We just started making line for West Street or the western side, the entrance we came in.

With that we ran out the front. There was, I think, a Chief’s aide sort of as a lookout saying “come on come on come on.” we stopped at the entrance as soon as he waved us on we go. We get to him. He was maybe 50 yards ahead of us, in front of us. On West Street I get to him and he says, “look at the building, Lou. The other one collapsed and this one is collapsing.” he showed me, about 20 stories up you see crack in the building. I look, “holy ****, the other buildings gone.” –FDNY Lieutenant Robert Bohack

While I was on the phone with Stacy at the Police Desk we all of a sudden heard metal creaking. I looked up and saw the North Tower buckling from the top. It looked like the north and west sides of the building were twisting and then separating like a banana peel. –PAPD Detective Edward Rapp

After that, I got out of there as quick as I could because the building was decaying. I mean, there was fire coming out of it, fire dropping down, and at that point I think we started to notice bodies dropping from the buildings. FDNY LT. George DeSimone

At that point I could actually visually see the top floors of the north tower starting to give way and that began to collapse. At that point we all began to run north. Thomas Bendick, FDNY EMT

We reached the sixth or seventh floor and are met by many firefighters coming down the stairs, informing us that the upper floors are collapsing and that there’s a heavy odor of gas and fuel. –FDNY Firefighter Hugh Mettham

Pedestrians began to form a crow[d] in the streets and I began to tell them to move back as far as the next block before the other building falls. As I continued to wave them back periodically you would hear a loud booom go off at the top of tower one. ...After approximately 15 minutes suddenly there was another loud boom at the upper floors, then there was a series of smaller explosions which appeared to go completely around the building at the upper floors. And another loud earth shattering blast with a large fire ball which blew out more debris and at that point everyone began to run north on West Broad Street. –PAPD P.O. Middleton

At 9:37, a civilian on the 106th floor of the South Tower reported to a 911 operator that a lower floor-the "90-something floor"-was collapsing. - "The 9/11 Commission Report" p304

Just at this time, another firefighter began to yell to us from across the street. He was looking up at the Towers and yelled for us to hurry up since he thought the second Tower was about to fall. The two firefighters and myself again picked up the injured man and managed to walk three of four steps when we felt extreme vibration and an incredible noise “like a thousand freight trains.” I knew instantly that the Tower was falling down. –PAPD Inspector Timothy Norris

I was standing there about 15-20 seconds when Inspector Fields ran up to me and said the building was going to come down. –PAPD P.O. Barry Pikaard

FDNY accounts here: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packag...12_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html

PAPD accounts here: http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/

Further reference: NIST Structural and Fire Protection Damage Due to Aircraft Impact: http://wtc.nist.gov/WTC_Conf_Sep13-15/session6/6McAllister.pdf

 

[Gravy]

Are these "cool" fires, kameelyun?

 

[Gravy]

Because I don't think he or the other firefighters would put out just the 78th floor fire and then leave.

The most goddamn ignorant statement about 9/11 that I've seen. Unbelievable. I hope you'll take the time to read the first responder accounts I gave the links to, kameelyun. You are making a jackass of yourself by spouting your ignorance.

 

[CHF]

Kameelyun,

you can't even find a structural engineer who works on buildings! There are thousands of these people out there and you're forced to settle on a guy who works on oil rigs.

That should tell you something, my dear.

 

[milesalpha]

"only one colleague out of several thousand" is a red herring. When people present views contrary to majority public opinion, they are often alone, as Galileo was when the Pope sentenced him to jail. The overwhelming majority of fellow scientists at the time distanced themselves from him.

Ah people who get their history from the internet, it's a constant annoyance for me. For the record the overwhelming majority of scientists did not abandon Galileo. Rather they ensured that his writings were smuggled out of his confinement and circulated. Several of them arranged for publication, in the northern protestant countries most notably. He remained extremely well respected up to and beyond his death. There was no public opinion on Galileo's writings, they were not circulated among the great unwashed masses of Europe.

But I did enjoy the bit about the "well respected" jones. You must have a whole new definition of well-respected.